Posted on 11/21/2005 2:11:12 PM PST by annalex
The Protoevangelium of James
The Birth of Mary the Holy Mother of God,
and Very Glorious Mother of Jesus Christ
IN THE RECORDS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL was Joachim, a man rich exceedingly; and he brought his offerings double, saying: There shall be of my superabundance to all the people, and there shall be the offering for my forgiveness to the Lord for a propitiation for me. For the great day of the Lord was at hand, and the sons of Israel were bringing their offerings. And there stood over against him Rubim, saying: It is not meet for thee first to bring thine offerings, because thou hast not made seed in Israel. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and went away to the registers of the twelve tribes of the people, saying: I shall see the registers of the twelve tribes of Israel, as to whether I alone have not made seed in Israel. And he searched, and found that all the righteous had raised up seed in Israel. And he called to mind the patriach Abraham, that in the last day God gave him a son Isaac. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and did not come into the presence of his wife; but he retired to the desert, and there pitched his tent, and fasted forty days and forty nights, saying in himself: I will not go down either for food or for drink until the Lord my God shall look upon me, and prayer shall be my food and drink.
2. And his wife Anna mourned in two mournings, and lamented in two lamentations, saying: I shall bewail my widowhood; I shall bewail my childlessness. And the great day of the Lord was at hand; and Judith her maid-servant said: How long dost thou humiliate thy soul? Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand, and it is unlawful for thee to mourn. But take this head-band, which the woman that made it gave to me; for it is not proper that I should wear it, because I am a maid-servant, and it has a royal appearance. And Anna said: Depart from me; for I have not done such things, and the Lord has brought me very low. I fear that some wicked person has given it to thee, and thou hast come to make me a sharer in thy sin. And Judith said: Why should I curse thee, seeing that the Lord hath shut thy womb, so as not to give thee fruit in Israel? And Anna was grieved exceedingly, and put off her garments of mourning, and cleaned her head, and put on her wedding garments, and about the ninth hour went down to the garden to walk. And she saw a laurel, and sat under it, and prayed to the Lord, saying: O God of our fathers, bless me and hear my prayer, as Thou didst bless the womb of Sarah, and didst give her a son Isaac.
3. And gazing towards the heaven, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel, and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! who begot me? and what womb produced me? because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the temple of the Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the fowls of the heaven, because even the fowls of the heaven are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth bringeth forth its fruits in season, and blesseth Thee, O Lord.
4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord hath heard thy prayer, and thou shalt conceive, and shall bring forth; and thy seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim thy husband is coming with his flocks. For an angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God hath heard thy prayer Go down hence; for, behold, thy wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring me hither ten she-lambs without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran anti hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God hath blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying in himself: If the Lord God has been rendered gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has remitted all my sins. And he went down from the temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And said Anna: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and gave the breast to the child, and called her name Mary.
6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to try whether she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, thou shall not walk on this earth until I bring thee into the temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they led her astray. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and gave her the breast. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He hath looked upon me, and hath taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord hath given the the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna gives suck? Hear, hear, ye twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna gives suck. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and ministered unto them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified thy name in all generations. In thee, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.
8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.
10. And there was a council of the priests, saying: Let us make a veil for the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Call to me the undefiled virgins of the family of David. And the officers went away, and sought, and found seven virgins. And the priest remembered the child Mary, that she was of the family of David, and undefiled before God. And the officers went away and brought her. And they brought them into the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Choose for me by lot who shall spin the gold, and the white, and the fine linen, and the silk, and the blue, and the scarlet, and the true purple. And the true purple and the scarlet fell to the lot of Mary, and she took them, and went away to her house. And at that time Zacharias was dumb, and Samuel was in his place until the time that Zacharias spake. And Mary took the scarlet, and span it.
11. And she took the pitcher, and went out to fill it with water. And, behold, a voice saying: Hail, thou who hast received grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women! And she looked round, on the right hand and on the left, to see whence this voice came. And she went away, trembling, to her house, and put down the pitcher; and taking the purple, she sat down on her seat, and drew it out. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood before her, saying: Fear not, Mary; for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all, and thou shalt conceive, according to His word. And she hearing, reasoned with herself, saying: Shall I conceive by the Lord, the living God? and shall I bring forth as every woman brings forth? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary; for the power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of the Most High. And thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And Mary said: Behold, the servant of the Lord before His face: let it be unto me according to thy word.
12. And she made the purple and the scarlet, and took them to the priest. And the priest blessed her, and said: Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name, and thou shall be blessed in all the generations of the earth. And Mary, with great joy, went away to Elizabeth her kinswoman, and knocked at the door. And when Elizabeth heard her, she threw away the scarlet, and ran to the door, and opened it; and seeing Mary, she blessed her, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? for, behold, that which is in me leaped and blessed thee. But Mary had forgotten the mysteries of which the archangel Gabriel had spoken, and gazed up into heaven, and said: Who am I, O Lord, that all the generations of the earth should bless me? And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened.
13. And she was in her sixth month; and, behold, Joseph came back from his building, and, entering into his house, he discovered that she was big with child. And he smote his face, and threw himself on the ground upon the sackcloth, and wept bitterly, saying: With what face shall I look upon the Lord my God? and what prayer shall I make about this maiden? because I received her a virgin out of the temple of the Lord, and I have not watched over her. Who is it that has hunted me down? Who has done this evil thing in my house, and defiled the virgin? Has not the history of Adam been repeated in me? For just as Adam was in the hour of his singing praise, and the serpent came, and found Eve alone, and completely deceived her, so it has happened to me also. And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O thou who hast been cared for by God, why hast thou done this and forgotten the Lord thy God? Why hast thou brought low thy soul, thou that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel? And she wept bitterly, saying: I am innocent, and have known no man. And Joseph said to her: Whence then is that which is in thy womb? And she said: As the Lord my God liveth, I do not know whence it is to me.
14. And Joseph was greatly afraid, and retired from her, and considered what he should do in regard to her. And Joseph said: If I conceal her sin, I find myself fighting against the law of the Lord; and if I expose her to the sons of Israel, I am afraid lest that which is in her be from an angel, and I shall be found giving up innocent blood to the doom of death. What then shall I do with her? I will put her away from me secretly. And night came upon him; and, behold, an angel of the Lord appears to him in a dream, saying: Be not afraid for this maiden, for that which is in her is of the Holy Spirit; and she will bring forth a Son, and thou shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. And Joseph arose from sleep, and glorified the God of Israel, who had given him this grace; and he kept her.
15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why hast thou not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest? and said to him: Joseph, whom thou didst vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and thou wilt find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why hast thou done this? and why hast thou brought thy soul low, and forgotten the Lord thy God? Thou that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel, and didst hear the hymns, and didst dance before Him, why hast thou done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why hast thou done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord liveth, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. Thou hast married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed thy head under the strong hand, that thy seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.
16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.
17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judaea should be enrolled. And Joseph said: I shall enrol my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enrol her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.
18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a widwife in the district of Bethlehem. And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.
19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.
20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.
21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to worship him. And when Herod heard, he was much disturbed, and sent officers to the Magi. And he sent for the priests, and examined them, saying: How is it written about the Christ? where is He to be born? And they said: In Bethlehem of Judaea, for so it is written. And he sent them away. And he examined the Magi, saying to them: What sign have you seen in reference to the king that has been born? And the Magi said: We have seen a star of great size shining among these stars, and obscuring their light, so that the stars did not appear; and we thus knew that a king has been born to Israel, and we have come to worship him. And Herod said: Go and seek him; and if you find him, let me know, in order that I also may go and worship him. And the Magi went out. And, behold, the star which they had seen in the east went before them until they came to the cave, and it stood over the top of the cave. And the Magi saw the infant with His mother Mary; and they brought forth from their bag gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned by the angel not to go into Judaea, they went into their own country by another road.
22. And when Herod knew that he had been mocked by the Magi, in a rage he sent murderers, saying to them: Slay the children from two years old and under. And Mary, having heard that the children were being killed, was afraid, and took the infant and swaddled Him, and put Him into an ox-stall. And Elizabeth, having heard that they were searching for John, took him and went up into the hill-country, and kept looking where to conceal him. And there was no place of concealment. And Elizabeth, groaning with a loud voice, says: O mountain of God, receive mother and child. And immediately the mountain was cleft, and received her. And a light shone about them, for an angel of the Lord was with them, watching over them.
23. And Herod searched for John, and sent officers to Zacharias, saying: Where hast thou hid thy son? And he, answering, said to them: I am the servant of God in holy things, and I sit constantly in the temple of the Lord: I do not know where my son is. And the officers went away, and reported all these things to Herod. And Herod was enraged, and said: His son is destined to be king over Israel. And he sent to him again, saying: Tell the truth; where is thy son? for thou knowest that thy life is in my hand. And Zacharias said: I am God's martyr, if thou sheddest my blood; for the Lord will receive my spirit, because thou sheddest innocent blood at the vestibule of the temple of the Lord. And Zacharias was murdered about daybreak. And the sons of Israel did not know that he had been murdered.
24. But at the hour of the salutation the priests went away, and Zacharias did not come forth to meet them with a blessing, according to his custom. And the priests stood waiting for Zacharias to salute him at the prayer, and to glorify the Most High. And he still delaying, they were all afraid. But one of them ventured to go in, and he saw clotted blood beside the altar; and he heard a voice saying: Zacharias has been murdered, and his blood shall not be wiped up until his avenger come. And hearing this saying, he was afraid, and went out and told it to the priests. And they ventured in, and saw what had happened; and the fretwork of the temple made a wailing noise, and they rent their clothes from the top even to the bottom. And they found not his body, but they found his blood turned into stone. And they were afraid, and went out and reported to the people that Zacharias had been murdered. And all the tribes of the people heard, and mourned, and lamented for him three days and three nights. And after the three days, the priests consulted as to whom they should put in his place; and the lot fell upon Simeon. For it was he who had been warned by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until he should see the Christ in the flesh.
And I James that wrote this history in Jerusalem, a commotion having arisen when Herod died, withdrew myself to the wilderness until the commotion in Jerusalem ceased, glorifying the Lord God, who had given me the gift and the wisdom to write this history. And grace shall be with them that fear our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory to ages of ages. Amen.
No, Num 4/8 do not describe a service of some kind. They describe the assignment of those who will perform service, not the service itself. So your argument that this is liturgy, or liturgical in nature falls absolutely flat. It does describe the mustering of those who will perform, and hence the word is used properly in it's natural context, and it also explains why the word is used here and not in a context where liturgy is described specifically.
What special circumstance? In Num 4:23 and in Num 8:24 men are serving at the tabernacle and in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 women are doing the same. Nothing special here: all these usages are similarly worded and describe some liturgical function (the tabernacle is a liturgical object).
Again, Num 4/8 does not describe men serving, but rather, their assignment toward that service... Ex 38 and 1Sam 2 are not assignment, but action, and the liturgical function you seem to desire is merely inferred in all cases. Your inference is only that - it is not explicitly described. And since the law specifically and explicitly denies the service of women in the Tabernacle and in the Temple, the explicit law should weigh more than your inference and discount it wholly (which it does indeed). Another interpretation is necessary.
Ah, good point. Indeed, if κατάκλειστοι were to mean "placed under lock so that they don't escape" then indeed that would make no sense. If however, they are cloistered, that is live separately because they want to, then it makes every sense that they flock to the priest in the moment of crisis or "throw themselves in the flames" as Pesikta Rabbati describes them. No one is saying that they were in every respect as Catholic nuns, just that they were separated from the other folk in the way allowing for the description κατάκλειστοι, and had access to the high priest.
In the first place, everyone had access to the high priest, unless he was serving in a function wherein he was consecrated. This idea of seclusion is imprinted in the Roman mind because of centuries of religious nobility. When a consecrated act was finished, the high priest was free to move about among the people.
The same goes for virgins - No special order is necessary to describe 'set apart' virgins, as ALL virgins are set apart by YHWH. It does the Hebrew people damage to impart heroism to this imaginary special sect, when it should be read as describing the whole of the people (ie: all young women) in the face of extreme desperation.
As far as cloistering, As I suggested before, it was by no means an uncommon thing for a city to lock away their daughters (which, one assumes was voluntary to some degree) when a foreign troop was inside the gate. That is not to say they were locked away indefinitely, but rather for the purpose of not tempting fate with rough soldiers in the streets. Daughters are a treasure to any man, and it is not hard to imagine that their protection would be an high priority in such a circumstance, whether by the device of each man, or by the community collectively. Such a circumstance is just as easy to deduce from the story as is some vestal order... And such a thing requires no invention.
So these texts, a part of the Jewish tradition, are not allowed by the Jewish tradition? Huh?
Your interpretation of these texts does not take into account the greater body thereof. It is what you impose that stands against, not the texts themselves. There is *no* reputable Jewish source which proclaims any sort of Hebrew 'vestal virgin'. In fact, the concept goes against not only their tradition, but also against the clear dictates of the Torah. So even if, by some chance, it is proven that there ever were such a thing, it would necessarily be formed in apostasy, and would not be something to emulate. It is most certainly not a part of their orthodoxy.
Which brings me to a question I had asked earlier that remains unanswered:
Lets look to the inverse evidence: In pagan systems, their vestal virgins are famously defined. One cannot long study the Greeks or Romans without finding volumes of evidences toward their existence (their actual virginity, be it as it may)... Not only by prescription and regulation within their religious activities and in their stories and myths, but even to the point of secular writings and poetry, and in murals, pictures, and decorations.
But here you would seem to impose such a thing in a system which lauds them not at all... where their very existence must be established in wispy and far-flung passages, if it is to be found in the least part, and that against the judgement of the very practitioners thereof (Judaism and it's traditions). How do you explain such a dichotomy?
Frankly, the very mention of “temple virgins” seems related to the gnostic premise that the temple was inspired by Baal worshippers.
Hebrew worship deliberately excluded women, and the stated reason was that Eve was deceived. (Adam was no prince either)
Is says that they were attending at the door of the tabernacle.
No women, married, virgins or otherwise
See evidence that it is not so, presented by Marshall, specifically, Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22.
The books of Numbers and Samuel provide far more reliable information then the uninspired Talmud
And Exodus, which supports Dr. Marshall's claim. The Talmud, or any Jewish tradition, of course, would have no bearing oin a Christian theological discussion, but in an historical discussion such as ours all historical evidence is important, not just scriptural.
you are not in the least familiar with Jewish tradition beyond what is said on someone’s blog
Which should be enough since Dr. Marshall provides specific quotes, several in number.
there's no acknowledgment of what it indicates
What did you post and I did not acknowledge? I am not one running away from concrete textual evidence; you are.
OK, and what? Are you going to argue that men in Num 4:23 and in Num 8:24, and women in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 were assigned to an nonexistent service? These assigned to service at the tabernacle per Numbers 4/8 were men. In Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 women assigned to service are described using the same verbiage. So women were assigned to some service similarly to men at the tabernacle. Tabernacle is a liturgical object. Women were assigned to assist in liturgy. That is the salient point.
Ex 38 and 1Sam 2 are not assignment, but action
In Numbers 4/8 men are assigned to action צבא and in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 women are characterized as those performing the same action צבא. While we don't know what that action is, it is connected to the tabernacle per all four occurrences.
since the law specifically and explicitly denies the service of women in the Tabernacle and in the Temple
Let is see how it does that. Note that no one is claiming that women were priests, no one is claiming they entered the very tabernacle, and Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 show that they were at its door, and therefore inside the Temple. References from Jewish tradition, moreover, show what precisely these women were doing: weaving the veil, preparing incense etc. Somehow it did not occur to whoever was writing Mishna Shekalim, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth, Pesikta Rabbati, 2 Baruch that he was describing a legal impossibility. So there. I believe the evidence in front of me, as a rational person. I understand that the implications from the evidence probably upset you, but I am appealing to your rational sense.
This idea of seclusion is imprinted in the Roman mind because of centuries of religious nobility.
Psychologize all you want, I read "κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων" and conclude that these were not merely virgins set apart by their virginity but κατάκλειστοι, locked away, virgins. Otherwise the inspired author would have simply said παρθένων.
As I suggested before, it was by no means an uncommon thing for a city to lock away their daughters
This is your speculation, not supported by the text in 2 Maccabees. On the other hand, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a) gives a rational reason for the institute of such virgins at all times: ordinary feminine work at the temple.
There is *no* reputable Jewish source which proclaims any sort of Hebrew 'vestal virgin'.
Are the asterisks around "no" make it a provable fact? We just went over such Jewish sources.
In pagan systems, their vestal virgins are famously defined.
So? Their role was different altogether.
Respect for virginity is common to the Jewish culture, and authentic Christianity, as well as Gnosticism and Islam, so it is not specifically indicative of Gnosticism. Oh wait! Am I gnostic? I must be...
“Here's the thing I object most to in our discussion,
It appears to me to me you are not in the least familiar with Jewish tradition beyond what is said on someone’s blog yet you make statements like this:
“Any role that a woman plays in a traditional society is either serving her husband or be not married, and therefore, a virgin.”
So good day and thanks but I really don't need any more regurgitations of Marshall's speculations. Understand now?
I should amend it: a respected woman in any traditional society is in one of three, not two states: a virgin; married; a widow. So a woman weaving, making incense and baking ceremonial breads in the temple, rather than in her husband’s house, would be a virgin, or possibly, if health permits, a widow. That is controversial?
All Marshall’s assertions that I presented here were substantiated by evidence from the Holy Scripture or from multiple independent sources in the Jewish written tradition.
It would be salient if it were true. The word 'tsâbâ' does not form the linkage you seem to desire. I tire of this nonsense, and will address it no longer. We disagree profoundly and completely.
Let is see how it does that. Note that no one is claiming that women were priests, no one is claiming they entered the very tabernacle, and Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 show that they were at its door, and therefore inside the Temple.
The Holy of Holies was surrounded by the Sanctuary. Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies, and that, only once a year. Only the priesthood could enter the Sanctuary, where priestly duties were performed... This is the 'Temple' proper. The Sanctuary was ringed with the Court of Israel (the Court of the Men), and only Hebrew men could enter therein. The Court of Israel was ringed by the Court of the Women. This was as far as Hebrew women could go. The Court of the Women was adjacent to, or ringed by (there is some contention) the General Court, or Court of the Gentiles. This was as far as any non-Hebrew could go.
The gate you must refer to is the gate between the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel, and thereby you seem to insist that these vestal virgins were allowed to enter the Court of the Men (where no woman could go, on pain of death), which can serve no liturgical purpose. Liturgical processes were limited to the precincts of the Sanctuary, where no one but the priesthood could enter. These are courtyards, and not the Temple itself.
And btw, 'at the gate' does not mean 'inside the gate', And considering the commandment that no woman should enter therein, one would naturally presume that 'at the gate' would mean near to the gate on the proper side thereof.
References from Jewish tradition, moreover, show what precisely these women were doing: weaving the veil, preparing incense etc. Somehow it did not occur to whoever was writing Mishna Shekalim, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth, Pesikta Rabbati, 2 Baruch that he was describing a legal impossibility. So there.
References from the traditions of Judaism, or at least those you have provided, can just as easily apply to the natural meaning of virgin in the Hebrew sense, and require no special circumstance or order, nor do they lend the credence you would require. The legal impossibility is rendered in your interpretaion thereof, rather than within the texts themselves. Ergo, as I said before, another interpretation is most definitely called for, as any interpretation which causes the commandment to be nullified, must by it's nature, be in error.
I believe the evidence in front of me, as a rational person. I understand that the implications from the evidence probably upset you, but I am appealing to your rational sense.
I am not upset. But my rational sense requires me to understand that twisting the word of YHWH to fit the desires of men is the very definition of wickedness. What I am defending is the very kernel of that word, and the commandment that it can neither be added to or taken from - As Yeshua has commanded us both to observe. When one is purposefully denying what is specifically and explicitly laid out therein, one must of a necessity retire the thought and find another way forward. Since there is no exception within the explicit thing, one cannot use the implicit thing to change it, lest anything would be allowable, and that which is precise would lose the very nature of it's precision. It must be human hubris at that point, and we are told to follow YHWH, not Man.
And I would add btw, that I have entertained your argument by allowing not only the psuedapigraphal text you begin with, and your apocryphal sources and traditions, and also allowed the traditions of Judaism... But do not think for a minute that any of them, or all of them together, can move me from the clear word of YHWH. It boils down to the explicit commandments of the Torah, which are declared immutable and eternal. But do not feel slighted - Even if an angel came down and declared otherwise, I would show him the door as well.
[roamer_1:] This idea of seclusion is imprinted in the Roman mind because of centuries of religious nobility.
Psychologize all you want, I read "κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων" and conclude that these were not merely virgins set apart by their virginity but κατάκλειστοι, locked away, virgins. Otherwise the inspired author would have simply said παρθένων.
I was speaking to the seclusion, the untouchable nature you implied wrt to the High Priest, not your imaginary nuns. You had claimed these virgins had access to the High Priest as if it showed some special status they possessed. My point was that everyone had access to the High Priest unless he was going about some consecrated duty, so virgins of any kind would have that access, along with anyone else.
And I do not consider 2Mac or any tradition to be inspired.
[roamer_1:] As I suggested before, it was by no means an uncommon thing for a city to lock away their daughters
This is your speculation, not supported by the text in 2 Maccabees.
I think it every bit as supported as your reading (which is also speculation):
18: Others ran flocking out of their houses to the general supplication, because the place was like to come into contempt.
19: And the women, girt with sackcloth under their breasts, abounded in the streets, and the virgins that were kept in ran, some to the gates, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows.
20: And all, holding their hands toward heaven, made supplication.
KJV w/Apoc, Mac 3:18-20
It says 'virgins who were kept in', not 'virgins who are kept in'. 'Were' implies 'had been, but are no longer kept'.
[...] On the other hand, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a) gives a rational reason for the institute of such virgins at all times: ordinary feminine work at the temple.
Right... work that can be performed by any virgin or betrothed woman. No special order is either necessary or noted. And were it noted, it would more likely be Levite women, the wives (betrothed) and daughters of the priests themselves - If one begins with a thought of celibate priests, one forgets that these priests had family and tribe, and might suppose them to be without access to females for such work - But it doesn't even say that. These virgins are the normal use of virgin, thus without implication, would naturally be daughters of the people generally.
Are the asterisks around "no" make it a provable fact? We just went over such Jewish sources.
The asterisks were for emphasis, And what you have presented from Jewish tradition is badly misinterpreted to suit your cause, else you should be able to find at least an handful of practicing Jews here on FR that agree with your argument. I would dare to say that no such testimony will be forthcoming...
So? Their role was different altogether.
So the Jewish Temple Virgins' role was to be completely hidden? That makes no sense at all... To the point of no creation of the order in the Torah, and no recognition or regulation within the Hebrew tradition? There are reams of regulation covering every aspect of Temple governance, yet not a peep about these mythical virgins? It is patently absurd.
Sure it does. Quoting myself: In Numbers 4/8 men are assigned to action צבא and in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 women are characterized as those performing the same action צבא. While we don't know what that action is, it is connected to the tabernacle per all four occurrences. That is your linkage.
The gate you must refer to is the gate between the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel, and thereby you seem to insist that these vestal virgins were allowed to enter the Court of the Men (where no woman could go, on pain of death), which can serve no liturgical purpose
Could be, and it could be that the somewhat mysterious service, צבא, was service directed to the women there assembled. Or it could be that the liturgical role in question was excluding women of marriageable age but exception was made for the virgins, who were allowed "at the door of the tabernacle" as the inspired text says. Like I said, it would be interesting to see the actual text banning women, since what you give is but a general description of the layout of the temple in your own words.
References from the traditions of Judaism, or at least those you have provided, can just as easily apply to the natural meaning of virgin in the Hebrew sense, and require no special circumstance or order, nor do they lend the credence you would require
I don't know what is "natural meaning of virgin in the Hebrew sense" and how it is different form the meaning of "virgin" in Dr. Marhsall's sense or, more to the point, in the Protoevagelium's sense. The point remains: they are at the door of the tabernacle; they were κατάκλειστοι and not simply παρθένοι; they had distinct functions making incense, baking ceremonial breads, and weaving the veil.
twisting the word of YHWH to fit the desires of men
I read the available evidence, some of it inspired and some not, and I do so objectively. I am not the one splitting hairs over assignment and action or suggesting that צבא must be said in military sense while it contradicts all four contexts we had in focus.
You had claimed these virgins had access to the High Priest as if it showed some special status they possessed
Don't put stuff in my mouth. I simply pointed out that epithet κατάκλειστοι is there for a reason and that epithet suggests some kind of separation from the rest of humanity.
the virgins that were kept
The rule of the English language is that all the verbs in a sentence have to be coordinated by tense, so if the narrative is in past tense that every verb in any role is in past tense also. I don't care how anyone translates it either; the original is clear enough, κατάκλειστοι, "under lock", or "locked", -- not a verb tense but a participle.
These virgins are the normal use of virgin, thus without implication, would naturally be daughters of the people generally.
Indeed, except they are given access to holy objects and described at least once as "under lock".
So the Jewish Temple Virgins' role was to be completely hidden?
It is manifestly not hidden since several scripture references and several tradition references are made to them. It is only hidden for people like yourself trying to deny evidence they don't like.
I wonder if the folks at the Temple Institute have a colony of virgins producing artifacts for the next temple?
http://www.templeinstitute.org/contact.htm
Yes, but we are not looking for spiritual guidance there, just for historical evidence of the customs of the time. Besides, the Talmud is but one of several references pointing toward the virgins present at the Temple at some role.
LOL, good luck.
If not the Talmud, if not the O.T., if not Josephus....then that leaves...what? Just “several references”? What?
“We find another reference to the “women who made the veils for the Temple...baked the showbread...prepared the incense” (Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a).”
This is what the Talmud actually says there:
“(Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a)
R. Nahman said: Rab stated that the women who wove the [Temple] curtains received their wages from the Temple funds25 but I maintain [that they received them] from the sums consecrated for Temple repairs, since the curtains were a substitute for builder’s work.
An objection was raised: The women who wove the [Temple] curtains, and the house of Garmo29 [who were in charge] of the preparation of the shewbread,30 and the house of Abtinas29 [who were in charge] of the preparation of the incense,31 received their wages from the Temple funds!32 — There33 [it may be replied] the reference is [to the curtains] of the gates;34 for R. Zera related in the name of Rab: There were thirteen curtains in the second Temple, seven corresponding to the seven gates,35 one for the entrance to the Hekal,36 one for the entrance to the ‘Ulam,36 two37 [at the entrance] to the Debir36 and two [above them and] corresponding to them in the upper storey.38
29. A priestly family.”
As I said, the opinions of the rabbis and even that you’ve misquoted.
Misquoted where? Your quote mentions all three activities linked to women, and Dr. Marshall did not provide any quotes of that.
Linked? linked how? Only by you leaving out part of the quote. See the footnote.
Sounds like the women and workers of the two (priestly)houses (men-women?) were paid workers. That’s a “link”?
The issue is not whether they were paid, or whether their parents or otherwise their “houses” were paid, but that they were women engaged in work on the sacramental objects in the Temple.
In short the Talmud is what I said, the opinion of the rabbis that cannot be relied upon.
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