Posted on 11/21/2005 2:11:12 PM PST by annalex
The Protoevangelium of James
The Birth of Mary the Holy Mother of God,
and Very Glorious Mother of Jesus Christ
IN THE RECORDS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL was Joachim, a man rich exceedingly; and he brought his offerings double, saying: There shall be of my superabundance to all the people, and there shall be the offering for my forgiveness to the Lord for a propitiation for me. For the great day of the Lord was at hand, and the sons of Israel were bringing their offerings. And there stood over against him Rubim, saying: It is not meet for thee first to bring thine offerings, because thou hast not made seed in Israel. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and went away to the registers of the twelve tribes of the people, saying: I shall see the registers of the twelve tribes of Israel, as to whether I alone have not made seed in Israel. And he searched, and found that all the righteous had raised up seed in Israel. And he called to mind the patriach Abraham, that in the last day God gave him a son Isaac. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and did not come into the presence of his wife; but he retired to the desert, and there pitched his tent, and fasted forty days and forty nights, saying in himself: I will not go down either for food or for drink until the Lord my God shall look upon me, and prayer shall be my food and drink.
2. And his wife Anna mourned in two mournings, and lamented in two lamentations, saying: I shall bewail my widowhood; I shall bewail my childlessness. And the great day of the Lord was at hand; and Judith her maid-servant said: How long dost thou humiliate thy soul? Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand, and it is unlawful for thee to mourn. But take this head-band, which the woman that made it gave to me; for it is not proper that I should wear it, because I am a maid-servant, and it has a royal appearance. And Anna said: Depart from me; for I have not done such things, and the Lord has brought me very low. I fear that some wicked person has given it to thee, and thou hast come to make me a sharer in thy sin. And Judith said: Why should I curse thee, seeing that the Lord hath shut thy womb, so as not to give thee fruit in Israel? And Anna was grieved exceedingly, and put off her garments of mourning, and cleaned her head, and put on her wedding garments, and about the ninth hour went down to the garden to walk. And she saw a laurel, and sat under it, and prayed to the Lord, saying: O God of our fathers, bless me and hear my prayer, as Thou didst bless the womb of Sarah, and didst give her a son Isaac.
3. And gazing towards the heaven, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel, and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! who begot me? and what womb produced me? because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the temple of the Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the fowls of the heaven, because even the fowls of the heaven are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth bringeth forth its fruits in season, and blesseth Thee, O Lord.
4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord hath heard thy prayer, and thou shalt conceive, and shall bring forth; and thy seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim thy husband is coming with his flocks. For an angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God hath heard thy prayer Go down hence; for, behold, thy wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring me hither ten she-lambs without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran anti hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God hath blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying in himself: If the Lord God has been rendered gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has remitted all my sins. And he went down from the temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And said Anna: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and gave the breast to the child, and called her name Mary.
6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to try whether she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, thou shall not walk on this earth until I bring thee into the temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they led her astray. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and gave her the breast. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He hath looked upon me, and hath taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord hath given the the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna gives suck? Hear, hear, ye twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna gives suck. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and ministered unto them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified thy name in all generations. In thee, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.
8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.
10. And there was a council of the priests, saying: Let us make a veil for the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Call to me the undefiled virgins of the family of David. And the officers went away, and sought, and found seven virgins. And the priest remembered the child Mary, that she was of the family of David, and undefiled before God. And the officers went away and brought her. And they brought them into the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Choose for me by lot who shall spin the gold, and the white, and the fine linen, and the silk, and the blue, and the scarlet, and the true purple. And the true purple and the scarlet fell to the lot of Mary, and she took them, and went away to her house. And at that time Zacharias was dumb, and Samuel was in his place until the time that Zacharias spake. And Mary took the scarlet, and span it.
11. And she took the pitcher, and went out to fill it with water. And, behold, a voice saying: Hail, thou who hast received grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women! And she looked round, on the right hand and on the left, to see whence this voice came. And she went away, trembling, to her house, and put down the pitcher; and taking the purple, she sat down on her seat, and drew it out. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood before her, saying: Fear not, Mary; for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all, and thou shalt conceive, according to His word. And she hearing, reasoned with herself, saying: Shall I conceive by the Lord, the living God? and shall I bring forth as every woman brings forth? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary; for the power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of the Most High. And thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And Mary said: Behold, the servant of the Lord before His face: let it be unto me according to thy word.
12. And she made the purple and the scarlet, and took them to the priest. And the priest blessed her, and said: Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name, and thou shall be blessed in all the generations of the earth. And Mary, with great joy, went away to Elizabeth her kinswoman, and knocked at the door. And when Elizabeth heard her, she threw away the scarlet, and ran to the door, and opened it; and seeing Mary, she blessed her, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? for, behold, that which is in me leaped and blessed thee. But Mary had forgotten the mysteries of which the archangel Gabriel had spoken, and gazed up into heaven, and said: Who am I, O Lord, that all the generations of the earth should bless me? And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened.
13. And she was in her sixth month; and, behold, Joseph came back from his building, and, entering into his house, he discovered that she was big with child. And he smote his face, and threw himself on the ground upon the sackcloth, and wept bitterly, saying: With what face shall I look upon the Lord my God? and what prayer shall I make about this maiden? because I received her a virgin out of the temple of the Lord, and I have not watched over her. Who is it that has hunted me down? Who has done this evil thing in my house, and defiled the virgin? Has not the history of Adam been repeated in me? For just as Adam was in the hour of his singing praise, and the serpent came, and found Eve alone, and completely deceived her, so it has happened to me also. And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O thou who hast been cared for by God, why hast thou done this and forgotten the Lord thy God? Why hast thou brought low thy soul, thou that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel? And she wept bitterly, saying: I am innocent, and have known no man. And Joseph said to her: Whence then is that which is in thy womb? And she said: As the Lord my God liveth, I do not know whence it is to me.
14. And Joseph was greatly afraid, and retired from her, and considered what he should do in regard to her. And Joseph said: If I conceal her sin, I find myself fighting against the law of the Lord; and if I expose her to the sons of Israel, I am afraid lest that which is in her be from an angel, and I shall be found giving up innocent blood to the doom of death. What then shall I do with her? I will put her away from me secretly. And night came upon him; and, behold, an angel of the Lord appears to him in a dream, saying: Be not afraid for this maiden, for that which is in her is of the Holy Spirit; and she will bring forth a Son, and thou shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. And Joseph arose from sleep, and glorified the God of Israel, who had given him this grace; and he kept her.
15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why hast thou not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest? and said to him: Joseph, whom thou didst vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and thou wilt find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why hast thou done this? and why hast thou brought thy soul low, and forgotten the Lord thy God? Thou that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel, and didst hear the hymns, and didst dance before Him, why hast thou done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why hast thou done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord liveth, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. Thou hast married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed thy head under the strong hand, that thy seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.
16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.
17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judaea should be enrolled. And Joseph said: I shall enrol my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enrol her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.
18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a widwife in the district of Bethlehem. And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.
19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.
20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.
21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to worship him. And when Herod heard, he was much disturbed, and sent officers to the Magi. And he sent for the priests, and examined them, saying: How is it written about the Christ? where is He to be born? And they said: In Bethlehem of Judaea, for so it is written. And he sent them away. And he examined the Magi, saying to them: What sign have you seen in reference to the king that has been born? And the Magi said: We have seen a star of great size shining among these stars, and obscuring their light, so that the stars did not appear; and we thus knew that a king has been born to Israel, and we have come to worship him. And Herod said: Go and seek him; and if you find him, let me know, in order that I also may go and worship him. And the Magi went out. And, behold, the star which they had seen in the east went before them until they came to the cave, and it stood over the top of the cave. And the Magi saw the infant with His mother Mary; and they brought forth from their bag gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned by the angel not to go into Judaea, they went into their own country by another road.
22. And when Herod knew that he had been mocked by the Magi, in a rage he sent murderers, saying to them: Slay the children from two years old and under. And Mary, having heard that the children were being killed, was afraid, and took the infant and swaddled Him, and put Him into an ox-stall. And Elizabeth, having heard that they were searching for John, took him and went up into the hill-country, and kept looking where to conceal him. And there was no place of concealment. And Elizabeth, groaning with a loud voice, says: O mountain of God, receive mother and child. And immediately the mountain was cleft, and received her. And a light shone about them, for an angel of the Lord was with them, watching over them.
23. And Herod searched for John, and sent officers to Zacharias, saying: Where hast thou hid thy son? And he, answering, said to them: I am the servant of God in holy things, and I sit constantly in the temple of the Lord: I do not know where my son is. And the officers went away, and reported all these things to Herod. And Herod was enraged, and said: His son is destined to be king over Israel. And he sent to him again, saying: Tell the truth; where is thy son? for thou knowest that thy life is in my hand. And Zacharias said: I am God's martyr, if thou sheddest my blood; for the Lord will receive my spirit, because thou sheddest innocent blood at the vestibule of the temple of the Lord. And Zacharias was murdered about daybreak. And the sons of Israel did not know that he had been murdered.
24. But at the hour of the salutation the priests went away, and Zacharias did not come forth to meet them with a blessing, according to his custom. And the priests stood waiting for Zacharias to salute him at the prayer, and to glorify the Most High. And he still delaying, they were all afraid. But one of them ventured to go in, and he saw clotted blood beside the altar; and he heard a voice saying: Zacharias has been murdered, and his blood shall not be wiped up until his avenger come. And hearing this saying, he was afraid, and went out and told it to the priests. And they ventured in, and saw what had happened; and the fretwork of the temple made a wailing noise, and they rent their clothes from the top even to the bottom. And they found not his body, but they found his blood turned into stone. And they were afraid, and went out and reported to the people that Zacharias had been murdered. And all the tribes of the people heard, and mourned, and lamented for him three days and three nights. And after the three days, the priests consulted as to whom they should put in his place; and the lot fell upon Simeon. For it was he who had been warned by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until he should see the Christ in the flesh.
And I James that wrote this history in Jerusalem, a commotion having arisen when Herod died, withdrew myself to the wilderness until the commotion in Jerusalem ceased, glorifying the Lord God, who had given me the gift and the wisdom to write this history. And grace shall be with them that fear our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory to ages of ages. Amen.
On the Mishnah, we are dealing with a variant reading.
(30) Threads, or according to others, denars in value. Another reading is ( ,uchr ) ‘damsels’, instead of ( tuchr ) ‘ten thousand’; i.e., it was woven by eighty-two young damsels.
http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Shekalim.pdf
Marshall quotes many more traditional sources beyond the Mishnah. And why is the Jewish tradition all of a sudden "unreliable"? We would not know nearly anything of the Judaism of the Second Temple period if not for it.
Firstly if we’re going to argue from what can or cannot be imagined then we’ll be the equal of the Rabbis of the Talmud who contemplated such heavy questions as How many men can hang onto the skirt of a Jew? (they had an answer) or Whether Jesus obtained magical books from Egypt (they had an answer) or that the term Rabbi was not used til after 70 A.D. and on and on.
Like I said Jewish rabbinical tradition is like sand that one has to sift great quanities to find a few flecks of gold.
Just as the quote from the Mishnah is the opinion of some Rabbi. How accurate is it? Everything the Talmud opines must be viewed as conflicting rabbincal opinions and that makes it unreliable.
Yes, we have two different reading, if the Marshall quote is the more accurate then what is being said is that maidens (virgins) wove a Temple curtain twice a year.
Would that be a temple virgin cult? Does that support Mary as a temple virgin or such? No.
A way too much is being read into a few traditons which are not “suddenly unreliable” but have been since Jesus’ day at least.
I opine that you haven’t read much of the rabbinal writings.
I am not the Pillsbury DoughBoy.
Both He and I eat Protestant children for lunch.
Your confession confirms long held suspicions.
However, if you want to dispute his findings, you need to address the scriptural and historical evidence he offers, rather than psychologizing his, or mine, motivation, evil as it may be.
That would be much easier to do if he actually DID offer any evidence.
The salient point is that the Holy Scripture makes mention of virgins in liturgical roles in the Temple, and so does the Jewish tradition. Do you dispute that?
Certainly I do. I thought that was already apparent.
No they don't - The texts you provide mention virgins, but do not suggest a liturgical function at all. The word you are relying on, 'tsâbâ,' has a military context depicting mustering or a troop assembling:
צבא
tsâbâ'
tsaw-baw'
A primitive root; to mass (an army or servants): - assemble, fight, perform, muster, wait upon, war.
(e-Sword:KJV, Strongs[H6633])
>H6633
צבא
tsâbâ'
Total KJV Occurrences: 14
fight, 4
Isa_29:7-8 (3), Isa_31:4
assembled, 2
Exo_38:8, 1Sa_2:22
mustered, 2
2Ki_25:19, Jer_52:25
warred, 2
Num_31:7, Num_31:42
assembling, 1
Exo_38:8
fought, 1
Zec_14:12
perform, 1
Num_4:23
wait, 1
Num_8:23-24 (2)
(e-Sword:KJV, KJC[H6633])
One might better defend imagining these virgins as Amazon warriors than inferring a liturgical sense. One had best assume an assembly of virgins... a group.... perhaps with an implied zealousness, as they are by the gate, as opposed others which may linger in the courtyard...
2 Machabees mentions virgins specifically;[...]
Yes it does, but it does not mention 'consecrated' virgins. It mentions no special order of virgins... Ergo, one is left with the normal specification for virgin, which unlike what the Roman mind would assume, is the 'set apart' aspect of Hebrew virgins... namely, all of them. That does imply a sanctity, a preference among women as being undefiled, but that does not imply any order, or specific temple order thereof. 'Shut up' need not mean 'cloistered', as it seems the writer has inferred.
[...] the rest are evidence from Jewish tradition. All these are historical evidence from an unbiased source (the Rabbis had no interest in promoting Marian Christianity).
Yes. A Jewish tradition that outright denies your claim. A Jewish tradition that would better know their own Temple and it's designs... Far better to take their word on the matter than rely on foreign interpretations.
Like Dr. Marshall says, “We may not know much about [the Temple virgins], but we know that they existed”.
I would say that Dr. Marshall has done little to prove his point. We do not know they existed, and the lion's share of evidence speaks to their profound absence.
We have multiple mentionings of young women in liturgical roles, both from the scripture and from written tradition. It is not therefore an implausible one-off fantasy of "some Rabbi". It shows that the institute of temple virgins existed during the Second Temple period.
Here is the supporting occurrence in Num 4:23
כל־הבא לצבא צבא לעבד עבדה באהל מועד
all that go in and minister in the tabernacle of the covenant
Here is Num 8:24
יבוא לצבא צבא בעבדת אהל מועד
shall go in to minister in the tabernacle of the covenant.
As you can see the usage of צבא is strictly liturgical. Which you could have verified yourself, but instead chose to sidetrack into a dictionary meaning, which, of course, does not contradict the liturgical usage anyway.
'Shut up' need not mean 'cloistered', as it seems the writer has inferred.
Really? I always though that κατάκλειστοι IS "cloistered". So "shut up" virgin means something other than "under lock in a building"? Or "shut up" means "in a building" but never, ever "in a temple building"? No kidding?
Far better to take their word on the matter
Indeed. Mishna Shekalim, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth, Pesikta Rabbati, 2 Baruch. Their word.
The quotes from the Mishna show no such thing no matter what mss. is being quoted and thus the above is reading more into it and the Scriptures referenced then is there.
In saying: “We have multiple mentionings of young women in liturgical roles, both from the scripture and from written tradition”... there is nothing that suggests temple virgins.
“liturgical roles”? What exactly are you talking about and does how that translate into “temple virgins”?
What you are left with is apocryphal writings and Marshall's assertions, if that. If that's sufficient for you, well and good for you. But please don't tell me that women serving outside the tabernacle equals temple virgins, it's like asking me to not see what I see or read.
You are denying the evidence in front of you. I don’t know beyond what I have shown but what I showed points to an institution best described as “temple virgins”: unmarried women assisting priests or making liturgical objects, separated from larger society. There are three canonical references and multiple references from the Jewish tradition that together point to their existence.
From women serving/gathered (exactly for what purpose unstated) outside the tabernacle to temple virgins (Mary, according to apocrypha) serving inside the second temple is a leap not justified by even the broadest reading or Scripture.
To say “...unmarried women assisting priests or making liturgical objects,..” is more than a bit vague. What were they doing? 82 virgins weaving the temple curtain twice a year? What objects? Assisting the priests in what way when that was the duty of Levites taking their turns at service?
A questionable quote from the Mishna (demonstrably unreliable) and inapplicable references to the OT do not evidence make of temple virgins and Mary being of their cult.
No it isn't 'strictly liturgical', as my previous post details - It's common meaning, outside of it's military root, is 'assemble' or 'assembly'... a grouping or group, or mustering, the act of forming a group. In fact, of the translations I have available, *none* use 'minister' in the verses you quote, with the general consensus being to 'perform' or to 'serve'... From that, 'ministering' could be inferred, no doubt, but since the passages are speaking to time frames of service rather than actual acts of service, 'You will assemble to perform or serve' would be a clearer sense than 'You will minister'. And such a reading would be more in line with how the word is translated elsewhere.
And even if I were to give you 'ministering' and allow a liturgical sense (which I will not), it would only open a possibility, as one is not required to allow the same sense in regard to the passages you offer with regard to an order of Temple virgins. One would still be obliged to read those passages using the common sense of the term primarily, and not jump to a use of special circumstance.
Which you could have verified yourself, but instead chose to sidetrack into a dictionary meaning, which, of course, does not contradict the liturgical usage anyway.
I did do exactly that, and my previous post speaks to that with specificity. Your interpretation would require a liturgical sense from two out of fourteen uses of the word, and by extrapolation, adopt two more of the remaining twelve verses into that sense... I am not requiring the ministerial sense, so I can allow the fourteen proof texts to remain within their common sense (or within their military sense, from which the word is derived). I see no need to modify the meaning beyond it's natural use.
Really? I always though that κατάκλειστοι IS "cloistered". So "shut up" virgin means something other than "under lock in a building"? Or "shut up" means "in a building" but never, ever "in a temple building"? No kidding?
Who would think of locking up their virgin daughters while a foreign military troop is inside the gates? How absurd is that reading? No one EVER did that in bygone days... Far better to assume cloistered nuns, even though there is no evidence of such a thing in Judaism... And why would anyone think against them being locked up in a temple where their very presence would require their death? Far better to invent a special circumstance to allow for temple virgins...
Indeed. Mishna Shekalim, Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth, Pesikta Rabbati, 2 Baruch. Their word.
Not at all - Their word on those passages, their tradition, allows for no such thing. One must impose the meaning you seem to desire.
First, no one is making a leap to personally Mary. The frequent objection to the Protoevangelium is that there were no temple virgins in principle. We are discussing evidence that there were temple virgins as an institution. Obviously, from the existence of the temple virgins does not follow that Mary was one, and no one is claiming any different.
As to your specific question, perhaps you are not familiar with the structure of the Second Temple. The tabernacle was a substructure inside the temple; so those serving outside of the tabernacle would be inside the temple. What their service was precisely outside of the tabernacle in the Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 we don't know but most rituals involve people standing at attendance, perhaps handing the priest necessary accessories, or just forming a solemn entourage. The point is that they had a set position at the door of the tabernacle.
What were they doing?
Weaving the veil of the tabernacle is specifically mentioned; as well as preparing the incense and baking "showbreads". We don't need to know what was their precise function in order to conclude that they existed.
A questionable quote from the Mishna (demonstrably unreliable) and inapplicable references to the OT
The OT references are applicable: they refer to women in some role present in the temple. The Mishnah reference may or may not be accurate even though the 82 x 10,000 threads looks like an absurd description of the veil. However, you are pretending the evidence form the Jewish tradition does not exist, whereas it is important. For example, the Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth, Pesikta Rabbatim, and 2 Baruch evidence all show that indeed these women made the veils.
The dictionary meanings indeed embrace other settings, but the usage in Num 4:23 and in Num 8:24 describe a service of some kind at the tabernacle, so however you want to translate that, these two usages are liturgical and not, for example, military.
jump to a use of special circumstance
What special circumstance? In Num 4:23 and in Num 8:24 men are serving at the tabernacle and in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 women are doing the same. Nothing special here: all these usages are similarly worded and describe some liturgical function (the tabernacle is a liturgical object).
Who would think of locking up their virgin daughters while a foreign military troop is inside the gates? How absurd is that reading? [...] Far better to assume cloistered nuns
Ah, good point. Indeed, if κατάκλειστοι were to mean "placed under lock so that they don't escape" then indeed that would make no sense. If however, they are cloistered, that is live separately because they want to, then it makes every sense that they flock to the priest in the moment of crisis or "throw themselves in the flames" as Pesikta Rabbati describes them. No one is saying that they were in every respect as Catholic nuns, just that they were separated from the other folk in the way allowing for the description κατάκλειστοι, and had access to the high priest.
their tradition, allows for no such thing
So these texts, a part of the Jewish tradition, are not allowed by the Jewish tradition? Huh?
I fail to see anything faintly “christian” in this text.
It seems to fit in well with the gnostic corruptions, and it has no resemblance whatsoever to the writing of James.
>> “And so it is. Jesus and family were in a house in Bethlehem when the wisemen visited and went in. Not cave, manger, etc.” <<
.
Correct.
The Magi came long after his birth in the sheepfold of the passover lambs. They were living in a proper residence, not at the sheepfold. There is no way of knowing exactly where, since the entire area was dragged to rubble with large timbers and stones drawn by oxen by the Romans.
>> “They had some really nice caves back then.” <<
.
But the Son of Man hath not a place to lay his head...
For the sake of clarity, the tabernacle in Samuel's time was the portable tent of meeting with a courtyard round about that was screened off. An altar and water basin were present in the courtyard.
The tent of meeting its self consisted of the holy and most holy and the whole area was at times called a temple. Solomon's temple was not yet built.
Only priests could enter the tent and the only attendants mentioned are males. (1 Sam. 2:12-19)
So exactly what role the women (they are not called virgins or attendants or helpers to the priests) played is not stated and I won't speculate.
“....some role...” is not temple virgins.
I'm not “pretending” anything, I've said quite clearly I don't think the Jewish traditions are reliable.
Any role that a woman plays in a traditional society is either serving her husband or be not married, and therefore, a virgin.
The authorship of James is disputed indeed. I don’t see anything gnostic in it.
What does 1 Sam. say about attendants? No comment on your part? What was “the temple” where young male Samuel served? No comment on your part.
Numbers chapter four says it was males that served the priests and only sons of Aaron that even saw the holy utensils. No women, married, virgins or otherwise but then I'm sure you knew this.
The books of Numbers and Samuel provide far more reliable information then the uninspired Talmud which again I'm should think you would be somewhat familiar with before commenting upon the endless opinions of the rabbis, some of which I shared with you.
You have read at least some of the writings of the Jewish Rabbis haven't you? Maybe a bit of Moses Maimonides?
No? Yes? No?
Here's the thing I object most to in our discussion,
It appears to me to me you are not in the least familiar with Jewish tradition beyond what is said on someone’s blog yet you make statements like this:
“Any role that a woman plays in a traditional society is either serving her husband or be not married, and therefore, a virgin.”
You said I was “pretending” about evidence yet when I presented what Numbers (surely superior to the Talmud) says there's no acknowledgment of what it indicates. None.
So thank you for your views, but I really have no, repeat, NO, interest in spoon feeding anyone.
Good day and all that.
A person might think such an exact location really is of no importance to Christian faith and understanding interesting as it may be. And they'd be right.
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