Justification by Faith Alone: Catholics and Protestants Together?

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/gospjust/faith_a.htm ^ | 1996 | James Akin

[InterestedQuestioner]

Scubienuc,

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink. The bible doesn't say we are saved by faith alone, anywhere.

It's a very simple fact.

And again, that tradition was invented in the 16th century by Martin Luther, it was simply not taught before then, for the simple reason that it's not in the Bible, and not a tradition of the Church.

As for James 2:24, if it doesn't say we are not saved by faith alone, then why did Martin attempt to remove the Epistle of James from Scripture? Go look at his introduction to it, he says it's not Scriptural. Called it an Epistle of Straw, and generally spoke of it being something that was good to start the fireplace with.

Finally, the whole speaking to the "saved" argument is based on an ungrammatical use of the English Language. The promise of the Bible is not that you "got saved" because you had a conversion experience, it's that those who Believe (present tense, ongoing,) will be saved (future tense). That is the assurance of Christ. Or were you working from another verse?

"BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you WILL be saved."

There are no people walking around in the New Testament asking each other, "when did you git saved?" Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but there were probably no people who held that belief before the 1800's, and I'll bet that one is an American Invention.

The people in the New Testament are being saved, by the Grace of God, through a faith, working in love. God has done his work in Christ, and now it is up to the believer to persevere to the end, that he may be saved.

[RnMomof7]

One is not saved by works. One can lose one's salvation for lack of proper works.

This would mean one was 100% saved by your works, as a maintenance of your salvation that would make it would be 100% works . Are you comfortable with a salvation by "works alone" ?

The verses other than from St. Paul you gave me refer to the elect whom Christ knows outside of time. It is true that some but not all will be saved. We cannot conclude anything about the way of life required of a Christian from these verses. The verse from St. Paul's Romans refers to the works of Jewish law, rather than the works of charity that Christ very clearly commanded us to do.

As opposed to your mandatory works of maintenance?

Please give me a CLEAR scripture where Jesus teaches that one must come in faith and works to be saved,

Please show me a teaching of paul or peter that Faith MUST be mixed with work for salvation

Jesus did not hide the gospel He preached it, as did the apostles and disciples. If you can not produce a few texts where they CLEARLY taught the need for works to be added to faith it would mean that God intentionally hid the means of salvation. Do you believe that ?

[RnMomof7]

Paul used those words to describe his own ministry

Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


1Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

. I--the preacher: as 1Cr 2:2 describes the subject, "Christ crucified," and 1Cr 2:4 the mode of preaching: "my speech . . . not with enticing words," "but in demonstration of the Spirit."
weakness--personal and bodily ( 2Cr 10:10 12:7, 9 Gal 4:13 ).
trembling--(compare Phl 2:12 ). Not personal fear, but a trembling anxiety to perform a duty; anxious conscientiousness, as proved by the contrast to "eye service" ( Eph 6:5 ) [CONYBEARE and HOWSON].


I remember when I did retreat work , I always came with fear and trembling, not fearful for my salvation... but that I do well and honor God.


You can not pick a scripture out of context and disregard the audience and purpose and use it as a proof text.

Philippians was written to the saved as encouragement and instruction in living a life that testifies to Christ in them

[RnMomof7]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Amen Brother, I am in awe of all the word of God, the means God uses to bring faith ..Praise His name !

[RnMomof7]

God, Himself, has done all of this for the believer.

Careful you are sounding like a Calvinist and of course you are right.

'He is the author and finisher of our faith"

"Salvation is of our God"

Psa 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower

Psa 62:7 In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God.

[Cvengr]

Here are some notes on faith from a dispensational perspective. Four doctrines of election, justification, faith, and sanctification strongly influence denominational differences. I may discuss those a bit later, but I believe you may find these notes to be helpful in conjunction with Scriptural study through faith in Christ.

DOCTRINE OF FAITH
Eph 483, 2/19/87; 5/8/77; Rom 10:8 4/13/79; Eph 172 12/8/85

A. Definition.
1. Basically there are three systems of human perception.
a. Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority and the veracity of another. Faith is not based on one's own knowledge, as is rationalism or empiricism.
b. Rationalism is reason from the source of knowledge in itself, superior to and independent of any other source of perception. Rationalism says that reality is what you think to be true. Rationalism requires a high I.Q., from which systems of philosophy are often developed.
c. Empiricism is knowledge from perception by observation and experience rather than by theory. All ideas are derived from some sensuous experience using the eyes, ears, nose, touch, etc, having no innate or a priori conceptions.
2. Perception by faith is always non-meritorious. It depends on the authority, veracity, and ability of someone else. Faith requires authority.
3. Faith also means a system of doctrine or a creed perceived by faith; i.e., what is believed.

B. Etymology.
1. Hebrew.
a. The verb AMAN means to believe, to support, to use someone as a prop, a crutch; to use someone else to be supported. The root meaning is a foundation on which you build something.
(1) In Isa 28:16, the hiphil means to cause to believe. The hiphil in Gen 15:6 uses AMAN for the salvation of Abraham, meaning to use God as a prop and foundation.
(2) Further, AMAN means to prove oneself, to stay faithful to, to remain or continue.
(3) Metaphorically, AMAN means to be faithful, trustworthy, and sure, as in Prov 19:8; Gen 42:20; 1 Kg 8:26; Hos 5:9.
b. The noun EMUNAH means faithfulness, security, or that on which security is based, e.g., the integrity of God.
c. The noun EMUN means integrity, fidelity, reliability.
d. The noun OMEN means doctrine, truth, faithfulness.
e. The noun EMETH means faithfulness, integrity, stability.
f. The verb BATACH is a wrestling term, which means to trust in the sense of slamming your troubles on God; this has a faith-rest connotation. In Ps 37:3, 91:2, also means to confide in someone.
g. The verb CHASAH means to hide in the cleft of a rock, as a rabbit does when chased by a fox. This verb is used for suffering and adversity. It means to trust in the sense of taking shelter or taking refuge in Bible doctrine; to believe in the integrity of God, Ps 57:1, 2:12, 5:12, 25:20, 7:1.
h. The verb JACHAL means to trust the Lord in time of great pain or disaster, Lam 3:21,24. In Job 13:15, it means to have hope and to wait. It is used for faith under great pressure, intense suffering, and pain.
i. The verb QAWAH is the strongest word for faith, used in Ps 25:3. It depicts a fine thread woven into a giant rope that cannot be broken. It is used in Isa 40:31 for the faith of a mature believer. In Lam 3:25 it means to wait. This word means that faith which gets its strength from outside of itself, connoting the non-meritorious aspect of faith. All merit lies in the object of faith.

2. Greek.
a. The noun PISTIS.
(1) Used as an attribute, PISTIS is what causes trust or faith, reliability, faithfulness, or integrity, Tit 2:10; 2 Thes 1:4.
(2) In the active sense, PISTIS means faith, confidence, trust, faith as a recognition of and acceptance of Bible doctrine. In the active sense, faith is used in three ways.
(a) Saving faith, Eph 2:8; 1 Jn 5:4-5.
(b) The three stages of the faith-rest drill, Rom 3:20; Heb 4:3.
(c) The metabolization of Bible doctrine.
(3) The passive meaning of PISTIS is Bible doctrine, meaning that which is believed, i.e., doctrine, the body of belief, which is obedience to authority. PISTIS is so translated "doctrine" is such passages as Gal 1:23; 2 Pet 1:5; 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1,6; Heb 11.
b. The noun PISTOS, used as an adjective in the passive sense means being trustworthy, worthy of trust, faithful, dependable, and inspiring trust. In the active sense, it means trusting or believing.
c. The verb PISTEUO means to believe, to trust something to someone, to use someone as an object of faith, Gal 2:16. It only takes a little more than no faith at all to be saved, Acts 16:31.
d. The verb PEITHO in the passive means to come to believe, to obey, to be persuaded or convinced. The perfect passive means to have confidence, to be absolutely convinced, to be certain. The active meaning as in Gal 1:10 means to convince, to persuade, to appeal, to win over. The perfect tense with a present meaning means to depend on someone, to trust in someone, to have confidence.
e. The verb PISTOO means to show oneself faithful; to be convinced; to have confidence, 2 Tim 3:14.

C. Biblical Use of "Faith" or PISTIS.
1. PISTIS is used for doctrine in Heb 11:1-3. "In fact, doctrine is the reality from which we keep receiving confidence, the proof of matters not being seen; for by means of doctrine men of old gained approval."
2. A description of faith is found in 2 Cor 4:18. "We look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen [essence of God]; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." Faith is the means by which we perceive reality in the invisible essence of God.
3. Sometimes both the faith-rest technique and doctrine are described in the meaning of PISTIS, as in 2 Cor 5:7. "We walk by faith and not by sight." Your eyes are in your soul, and your soul must have Bible doctrine. We see the unseen through doctrine. Doctrine gives us relationship with the integrity of God, which sustains us in time of disaster. We see the justice and integrity of God through doctrine.
4. Heb 11:6, "And without doctrine resident in the soul, it is impossible to please God, for when one is occupied with God, he must be convinced that He is and that He becomes a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
5. Rom 10:17, "Doctrine comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
6. Gal 5:22, "The fruit of the Spirit is doctrine."
7. In each verse above, PISTIS relates faith to the perception of Bible doctrine. PISTIS means both faith and doctrine. All perception of doctrine is accomplished through the function of faith perception.
8. 1 Tim 1:19 and 4:1 use PISTIS for the doctrine of demons.

D. Faith is the means of salvation adjustment to the justice of God.
1. Believing is non-meritorious perception. The merit is always found in the object of faith (Jesus Christ) and not in the subject, the one having the faith (the believer).
2. That salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ is documented in many passages, including Acts 16:31; Jn 3:16,18-19,36 6:47, 20:31; Rom 3:22,28, 4:5, 9:30; Gal 2:16, 3:26; 1 Jn 3:23, 5:4-5. Salvation adjustment to the justice of God is believing in Christ.
3 The justice of God is our point of contact with the essence of God because justice judged our sins in Christ on the cross. The mechanics of receiving all blessing from the justice of God is grace. Grace is non-meritorious, compatible with faith, Eph 2:8-9.

E. Faith is a system of doctrine or what is believed.
1. The object of faith is Bible doctrine. This includes both doctrine in perception and in application. Bible doctrine is invisible. Faith is confidence in the unseen. Bible doctrine must be transferred to our right lobe by means of faith.
2. The perception concept is related to post-salvation epistemological rehabilitation. The application concept is related to the faith-rest drill or reverse concentration.
3. Once you have Bible doctrine on the launching pad of your soul, then the faith-rest drill in its maximum use applies doctrine to experience.
4. Maturity adjustment to the justice of God demands maximum Bible doctrine in the right lobe, which comes through the daily perception, metabolization, and application of Bible doctrine.
5. The intake of Bible doctrine results in maximum blessing to your soul. Blessing does not come because of your self-righteousness, personality, good works, or anything else.

F. The Object of Faith.
1. The object of faith always has the merit. There is no merit in the subject because faith is a non-meritorious system of perception.
2. All the faith in the world secures nothing but condemnation from the integrity of God. We are born with faith. We first learn vocabulary by faith.
3. However, the tiniest bit of faith in Christ secures eternal salvation. It only takes a little more faith than no faith at all. It is the object of faith that counts, not the worthiness of the one with faith.
4. There is no merit in believing; the merit lies in the object of faith.
5. For salvation adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. For maturity adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is Bible doctrine.
6. Faith is not something we do, but it is the channel by which we appropriate what God has done for us.
7. For rebound adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is two-fold, depending on the believer's spiritual growth.
a. The Scripture is the object of faith for the immature believer, 1 Jn 1:9; 1 Cor 11:31; Ps 35, 32:5, 38:18; Prov 28:13.
b. For the mature believer, doctrine is the object of faith, and the integrity of God is the basis for understanding the forgiveness of our sins through rebound.
8. Through these adjustments to the justice of God and blessings from the integrity of God, Jesus Christ becomes the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2.

G. The Application of Faith in the Function of the Faith-Rest Drill.
1. Faith must be exercised as it develops. Learning doctrine develops faith. As this occurs, faith has the increasing ability of perception, of learning more and greater details in the Word of God, Heb 4:1-3.
2. God has blessing which will only be yours if you relate totally to the integrity of God by learning doctrine, 1 Pet 1:7-8.
3. Bible doctrine is the royal family's currency. Bible doctrine is the working currency in the life of every believer. Learning doctrine gives you currency to understand the integrity of God.
4. Abraham's circumcision is the classical illustration of the mature believer with maximum adjustment to the justice of God making application of his faith, Rom 4:17-21. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was the proof or testing of his mature faith, Gen 22:1-18.
5. The mechanics of the faith-rest drill comprise three stages.
a. Stage one: Faith claims promises from the Bible, Heb 4:1-3, which can be called mixing the promises of God with faith.
b. Stage two: Faith claims doctrinal rationales, like the essence of God rationale, the plan of God rationale, the logistical grace rationale, the a fortiori rationale, the escrow/election rationale, etc. This stage is known as reverse concentration, the application of doctrine.
c. Stage three: Faith reaches doctrinal conclusions and is in control of the situation. This becomes the function of spiritual self esteem. It is the third stage of the faith-rest drill that brings you to spiritual self-esteem.

H. The Victory of Faith, 1 Jn 5:4-5.
Relationship with the integrity of God is greater than any pressure or disaster in life. It is more important than anything in life, whether failures, successes, pressures, or prosperity.

(c) 1989, by R. B. Thieme, Jr. All rights reserved.

[Petrosius]

I fear that we are getting bogged down in the typical back and forth of whether or not the Bible calls for salvation by faith alone. The arguments on both sides have been rehearsed many time. As I stated, I posted the article because within this debate it seemed to me (at least on the part of gscc, Mr. Lucky and myself) that a consensus on this was actually arising.

Again, on this thread I would like to limit the discussion on the definition of "faith." For Catholics it means only intellectual assent. Mr. Lucky and gscc seemed to imply that for Protestants that it also included in some form a commitment to righteousness. Mr. Akin's article also held for this and argued that Catholics and Protestants were saying the same things but using different theological terms (or in the case of the word "faith" the same term with different meanings).

I would like the following questions to be answered:

1) Is there any validity in this position?

2) Is this valid for some Protestants and not others?

3) If so, is there a division in Protestant understanding of "faith" that is specific to particular Protestant denominations or does this division cut across Protestant denominations?

[Cvengr]

Different meanings in different contexts. See the etymology above and compare the translations in different passages.

[Mr. Lucky]

I take no issue with the language of the Joint Statement on the Doctrine of Justification. Is that helpful?

There is, or course, no monolithic "Protestant" position on any issue. Many "Protestant" Churches (such as the orthodox Lutheran Church or the pre-sodomite Episcopal Church) are much closer to the Roman Catholic Church theologically than they are to most other Protestant denominations).

[annalex]

This would mean one was 100% saved by your works

No, that would not mean that. I need to steer my car in order to get where I am going and preserve the car, but my driving did not make the car, Toyota did.

give me a CLEAR scripture

I did. #15. If that is not clear, you cannot comprehend the scripture.

[ScubieNuc]

I can see that you and I will probably never agree as to what is a Biblical fact or not.

As a side question, Do you know for sure where you will spend eternity when you die? If you don't want to clog up this forum, feel free to freepmail me.

Shalom

[Quester]

"Obeying God's command to believe (have faith) in His Son (the One which He has sent) ... is the only response which God requires from man ... so as to bestow His gift of salvation. "

God requires that we obey all of his commands.

And ... who can hope to accomplish this ... in this life ?

Do you ?

Do you truly believe that your salvation depends upon your perfect execution of God's Will ?

Wasn't that Jesus' task ?

Going on to your scriptural reference ...

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This episode in Jesus' ministry has always struck me as one where Jesus is really saying more ... than it appears He is saying.

For instance ... when the young man first comes to Jesus, ... and greets Him by saying ... "Good Master, ... " and Jesus responds firstly, to the young man's question by saying ... "Why do you call Me good ? ... for there is only One Who is good, ... and that is God ... "

Now we (thats Protestants and Catholics) ... who believe in the Deity of Jesus ... can understand that Jesus is here making an implicit reference to His own deity.

AFter all .. the correct answer to the question posed by Jesus is ... "Well ... You are God, after all, ... so there's no problem in calling you good."

Well ... I believe that Jesus is making the same of implicit statement ... when He answers the young man's question about what he must do to have eternal life.

He says to the young man ... "Obey the commandments ... "

This, actually, is exactly the answer to to the question that the young man asked ...

"What good deed must I do to have eternal life.

What Jesus, essentially, says to him is ... "Well, if you are going to do it ... you must be perfect."

And as an example of how that young man could not live perfectly, ... when Jesus asked him to sell all that he had to give to the poor, ... the young man balked, and went away sadly, ... for he knew that he could not do it himself. It was impossible for him.

After Jesus explained to His disciples regarding the difficulty for a rich man to get into heaven, ... His disciples got the message too.

If the ultimate challenge to obey God perfectly would be similar to the young man's challenge to give up his riches, ... then the disciples understood that such was an impossibilty.

They said to Jesus ...

Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So ... the true lesson here is that ... if you're depending upon yourself for your salvation, you're in an impossible situation.

OTOH, ... if you're depending on God for your salvation, ... the impossible has just become a sure thing.


Without God we can do nothing, and through faith, we act obediently to God and cooperate with his Grace. If we are to conform to the language of the bible, however, this faith, does not stand alone ...

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1Cor 13:2)

Love ... is the context for salvation.

God loves us ... and thus, He saves us.

And we are saved ... to love ... God and our neighbor.

Love is the Source ... and Love is the goal.

The imperative for the saved individual ... is love.

If one does not manifest love, ... than it can be fairly reasoned that one has not received that gift of love from God.

God loved us, ... and now, empowered with that Love, ... we love God (in return) and others.

[bonfire]

Beautiful post, Questor. I needed that. Thank you.

[Quester]

There are no people walking around in the New Testament asking each other, "when did you git saved?" Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but there were probably no people who held that belief before the 1800's, and I'll bet that one is an American Invention.

Peter certainly treats the idea of having been saved as a 'fait accompli' ...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

[RnMomof7]

This would mean one was 100% saved by your works
No, that would not mean that. I need to steer my car in order to get where I am going and preserve the car, but my driving did not make the car, Toyota did.

Rather like the Deist clock analogy ? God winds it up and just lets it run?

Your analogy is this

I am fully in charge of the car. What happens to the car is all my responsibility.

THAT is salvation by MY steering ( works) , 100%

James 2 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

THAT is NOT a salvation scripture.

The Epistles were written to the SAVED. This was a letter on how to LIVE your life in a way that men could see it (let your light SO SHINE BEFORE MEN)

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

What was James teaching the church?

Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

show me thy faith without thy works--if thou canst; but thou canst not SHOW, that is, manifest or evidence thy alleged ( Jam 2:14 , "say") faith without works. "Show" does not mean here to prove to me, but exhibit to me. Faith is unseen save by God. To show faith to man, works in some form or other are needed: we are justified judicially by God ( Rom 8:33 ); meritoriously, by Christ ( Isa 53:11 ); mediately, by faith ( Rom 5:1 ); evidentially, by works. The question here is not as to the ground on which believers are justified, but about the demonstration of their faith:
A. R. FAUSSETT

Would you please define the word Mercy for me ?

Also I still await a scripture that TEACHES Salvation is WORK and FAITH .

Surely Jesus would have taught that , surely it would have been preached in Acts. The Holy Spirit reveals truth H does not hide it

[RnMomof7]

God requires that we obey all of his commands.
And ... who can hope to accomplish this ... in this life ?
Do you ?

Amen Brother.

The law reflects the Holiness of God that not one of us could live out.

God gave men the commandments to reveal His Holiness and His standard and to show men that they are sinners in need of a Savior

No man could keep that Law . Christ did for us what we could not do for ourselves .

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

Those that try to steer their own car and save themselves by works need to consider the words of Paul

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I ask any reader that has never asked the Spirit of God to reveal the truth of the Gospel to do so . Ask for faith to believe.

[gscc]

Indeed, that's because the Bible nowhere says we are saved by faith alone. Or would you care to show me a single verse that says we are saved by faith alone? One verse is all I would need.

I will show you that when you show me the verse that mentions the Trinity.  Scripture interprets scripture.  I am sure most in this discussion are Trinitarians - if you hang you hat on doing a word search of the term Trinity in Holy Scriptures you are plain out of luck and through your logic the belief in the Trinity is to be found nowhere in scripture and therefore not scriptural.

Your continuous harping that the doctrine of Salvation by faith alone is not in the Scriptures is the point of the article.  Your assertions that Martin Luther's doctrine is an "invention" is nothing other than RC talking points.  One of the contentions that Luther had to deal with was RC practice beyond RC doctrine.  I asked you in another thread about Urban II's granting of the forgiveness of sins if a Crusader died during the Crusades.  This was clearly granting forgiveness of sins based on works only and did not take into consideration the condition of an individual commitment in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ.  The granting of indulgences clearly was a works oriented practice.  If you want me to renounce a clinical, intellectual assent to faith I would have no problem with that because I have clearly stated in other posts and believe as the author states that where you are having difficulty is the understanding the definition of faith.  I suggested that we were talking past each other - and you continue to prove my point.

 

[gscc]

I thank you very much for this post. On this issue there is a great deal of skepticism on both sides as to motives, with the result that we continuously pound on the talking points that we have been grounded in theologically. As the previous thread developed I began to feel that at least you and I, on this issue anyway, were really not that far apart and through God's illuminating hand you came up with this article.

[Petrosius]

This episode reminds me of what once happened to me in college. I have written about this before on another thread in a discussion about Catholic-Orthodox disputes but I think that it bears repeating.

One day I was having a discussion with a college classmate from England about public vs. private education. Normally we were in close agreement about political and social matters. In this instance, however, we were arguing against each other. We were both becoming exasperated as to why the other could not understand the points that we were making. Then, in the middle of the conversation, my English friend asked me to define what I meant by a "public school". It turned out that what is called a "public school" in the U.S. is called a "state school" in England. What the English call a "public school" we call a "private school". Thus we were actually agreeing on the policy but we did not realize it because we were using the term "public school" with two different meanings.

I think that between the Catholics and the Lutherans (am I correct in thinking that you, gscc, are Lutheran like Mr. Lucky?) we may have been doing the same thing for some five hundred years when we talk about faith. One problem, though, is that there are some Protestants who, perhaps making the same mistake concerning Luther's usage of the term "faith" it seems that Catholics have, do seem indeed to have reduces "faith alone" to a mere intellectual assent to God. Thus is becomes difficult to present the Catholic understanding when in a single thread there is not just a different usage between Catholics and Protestants but also between the Protestants themselves. Or is it that there are some Protestants that are more interested in proving that Catholics are wrong than in coming to a mutual understanding?

I cannot speak for their meaning of the term "faith" of the various Protestant denominations or theological schools. That is why I asked that the other posters on this thread could address this to see if the dispute on this issue was real or not.

[Petrosius]

I would like to thank the two of you for your remarks. I would also be interested to know if you thought that there were any deficiencies in Mr. Akin's analysis.