Posted on 08/16/2003 5:26:03 AM PDT by JesseHousman
As the Episcopal Church agonized over the confirmation of the Rev. V. Gene Robinson as its first openly gay bishop — and now as his endorsement threatens to split the denomination — some have wondered why homosexuality is such a divisive issue in Christianity.
Why don't all Episcopalians and other churches simply recognize that gay people are sexually active and move on? After all, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws this year and Canada plans to legalize same-sex marriages.
The reason, in short, is the Bible — the word of God in the eyes of Christians.
Until very recently, all Christian branches agreed that same-sex activity was immoral because of their age-old understanding of God's will taught in the Scriptures.
Most of the world's Christian bodies maintain that belief. But in the last quarter-century, liberal scholars from some so-called "mainline" Protestant denominations in Europe and North America have argued against traditional Bible interpretations, often in books from church publishing houses. They say the Bible's overwhelming overall message is loving acceptance and justice for all people.
This has gradually influenced leadership circles in the Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and United Methodist Church. Yet the new biblical theories have failed to convince legions of rank-and-file American churchgoers.
To go to the source of the argument, two biblical passages are crucial:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22, an Old Testament law repeated with the death penalty in Leviticus 20:13).
"God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:26-27).
Conservatives say God fixed the sexual pattern in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh." Jesus repeated that teaching twice in the Gospels: Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9.
At the Episcopal convention, the Rev. Kendall Harmon of South Carolina said that the Old and New Testaments send the same message that sex is limited to a woman and a man. "There is no tension, no qualification, no development and no equivocation," he said.
Another conservative point: No biblical verse hints at approval for same-sex activity.
Liberal authors commonly say Leviticus 18 was part of a Jewish purity code that barred practices associated with paganism, including many laws Christianity eliminated, for instance the kosher rules in Leviticus 17. Conservatives reply that the gay ban is embedded alongside laws against adultery, incest, bestiality and child sacrifice that Christianity kept.
Regarding Romans 1 and other New Testament passages, liberals often say these merely meant to oppose same-sex activity that was exploitative (using slaves or boys). A related argument: Paul thought men were heterosexual in nature and should shun homosexual acts, but some today believe people are born with a disposition toward being gay.
In the heftiest conservative book on the subject in recent years, "The Bible and Homosexual Practice" (Abingdon), Robert A. J. Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary argues in detail that all same-sex variants were well known in the ancient world — so it's obvious the Bible opposed same-sex activity across the board, not just certain types.
But the Rev. Walter Wink of New York's Auburn Theological Seminary, a United Methodist clergyman, disagrees with Presbyterian Gagnon's reading of Scripture.
"The Bible has no sex ethic," Wink says. "It only knows a communal love ethic" exemplified by Jesus' command to love your neighbor as yourself, which requires Christians to understand gays' experiences.
Societies' changing codes of sexual conduct should be assessed against that standard and in light of modern knowledge, he says.
Wink acknowledges that "a lot of churches are not going to change" for the present, but he's convinced they will eventually shed old Bible interpretations that are "life-denying and intellectually dishonest."
"In 50 years most of us will look back and say, 'Why were we so slow? Why was this so difficult?'" he said.
Bishop-elect Robinson believes biblical conservatives will "come to know that they are wrong, in this life or the next one."
Gagnon agrees that the traditional view is not popular in universities or the media. But he insists that the Bible's entire authority is under threat. If people can deny such a clear and specific scriptural teaching, he says, it raises questions about the point of adhering to the faith in the first place.
Says Gagnon: "When we reach the point where it is no longer the word of God for us in any meaningful sense, there is no more reason to be part of organized Christianity."
Wonder how God "interprets" the behavior of an apologist for sin.
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! (Luke 17:1)
Homosexual interpretation..
If you have one long enough or are double jointed and can 'do' yourself, then 'do' your neighbor.
Beyond the fact that the sin lifestyle (including Homosexuality) has many more consiquences than a godly life style (STD's in the case of sex, Organ damage in the case of substance abuse ...) Beyond the fact that Christ is the way to life eternal, serving God brings such joy..
It's a Satan thing.
They've got their own set of "laws,"
worked out long ago...
""Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is a moral utterance found in the Thelemic foundation scripture, which is called the Book of the Law. "Do what thou wilt" is known as the Law of Thelema. It is derived from the rule of the fictional Abbey of Thélème in the classic satire Gargantua by the French priest and occult student François Rabelais. Crowley recommends study of Rabelais when discussing the Law. In Rabelais this rule was "fay çe que vouldras", French for "do what you will." From his work the maxim became a well-known part of Western literary life, and was adopted by the satirical English gentleman's society called the Hell-Fire Club or the Friars of Medmenham.
In Crowley's writing, the Law of Thelema is explained in terms of True Will, the ultimate spiritual core or quintessence of each person, which has a divinely self-ordained path through the world of experience. "Do what thou wilt" refers not to the outer emotional and intellectual self but to this sacred inner core of personal divinity. Often will is contrasted with whim, and the knowing and doing of the True Will is painted not in terms of license and ease but of responsibility and hard work.
Since this new law replaces outdated moral codes based around sins and forbidden acts, a person knowing and doing the will might appear to be sinful from a traditional viewpoint. In Crowley's view the Thelemite is following a demanding code requiring great personal integrity even while, for instance, making love in ways that would be illegal in oppressive societies. Sometimes it is natural to express this ironic inversion of traditional mores in satiric form, and Crowley, Rabelais and the Hell Fire Club all made heavy use of the satirical style in their writing and work."
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." [Matthew 12:31-32]
Considering the topic, you might have used less "descriptive" language. Eeewwwww!
Be that as it may, they cannot do it without the cooperation of the church hierarchy, and that requires working from the INSIDE. I find it more than a little disturbing that the MAJORITY of the bishops voted FOR this abomination.
I kinda thought that was the idea... which compounds the sin several times over in my opinion.
Only if he were repentant. Obviously, the fact that he is an openly PRACTICING homosexual by defintion makes him unrepentant.
The rest of us will be, of course, "saved" when God takes care of these Sodomites!
I fear that in 50 years it will be more like; "What were we thinking? How could we have gone so wrong?" These 'mainline' Protestant Churches survive because of people like myself who were raised in them from childhood. Continuing in this direction will continue their depopulation and even speed it up. In the 50 years postulated by Rev.Wink, he may be speaking to a very small group of Lutheran-minded, Methodically oriented, Episcopallic Presbyterians gathered in a phone booth!
I am an Episcopalean with gay friends and neighbors whom I treat like everyone else. What the do in their own private space is of no matter to me, but what their group efforts are forcing on my society DOES MATTER TO ME! This is an arrow in my heart and I do not know how to take it out and I fear the consequences. Historically, pressure groups have moved their general society in an attempt to redeem grievances. Sometimes they move too far and their comes a sometimes violent reaction and this is what I do FEAR!
As for me, I am about to take the opposite definition of cleave ( cleaves to his wife ) as I now search for a new church home.
I couldn't agree more.
My original reply to this thread was to direct attention to a more specific reason for this problem rather than the concept that it is "satanic" or "socialistic" or any other cause than liberalism. In many cases the modern day liberal (40 or 50 years) has met with great success with his agenda. Homosexual agenda, abortion on demand, environmental terrorism, governmental control and apparently, the infecting of the Episcopal and Catholic church at the highest levels.
Not the ones I know...
..maybe you're referring to the bishops.
Only if they throw out the whole bible which tells us how to know what it means - which is always to point to the Lord. It speaks very clearly that these old Bible interpretations are the opposite of what he says.
Concerning life-denying, in one place, Jesus says:
"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:38-47)
and concerning intellectually dishonest we know that man's wisdom/intellectualism is worth diddly squat:
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe... Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. (1 Corinithians 1: 18-21,25-29)
So as we all know, they don't want to get rid of old interpreations, but the Bible itself, the Word of God, Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh.
In Jesus alone,
Andra
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