Welcome to the "Hard Times Saloon!"

8/6/2003 | Luke Skyfreeper

[Luke Skyfreeper]

Over the last few months, I've run into quite a few other Freepers who are either unemployed or underemployed, and generally going through majorly tough times in this economy.

So I'm starting this thread as a "watering hole" for all of us here who, like me, are currently living on the edge financially and job-wise.

Of course, you don't have to be in dire straights to join in the discussion. You can simply be interested in those of us who are.

In fact, since one useful function of this thread can be to pass on job-hunting tips or maybe even letting a job-needing fellow Freeper know about a suitable possibility in your town, any Freeper who drops in might just find him/herself able to actually help a fellow Freeper or two.

Now one of the main things I expect to happen in this thread is a bit of mutual encouragement. We who are job-hunting need to keep our spirits high, sometimes in the face of months, even years (gulp!) of discouraging news -- and we can help each other do that.

The goal is to make it out of joblessness/ underemployment, and into Prosperityland. Our joblessness /low income is hurting not ourselves, our families, and even our ability to make a positive difference in this country. So let's get encourage each other, cheer each other's progress, and celebrate when one of us gets a good job.

One ground rule: If what you have to say to someone else here isn't uplifting and/ or helpful to that person, then please don't say it. (And of course, no advertisment-type stuff, either). OK?

If you know other Freepers who'd like to drop by, give 'em a ping, and let's get going.

By the way, anything you'd like is on tap here at the Hard Times Saloon: cold milk, fresh-squeezed lemonade, frozen milk shakes, even [shudder] Bud Light... but you have to pour it yourself. 8-)

[Kitten1]

http://careers.csc.com/

IT folks (and others) should check out this site. The company is Computer Sciences Corporation and I know a couple of the Partners in the Oak Brook and Buffalo Grove, IL locations.

These partners (and a slew of other employees) recently left my current employer--I'm in the process of doing the same. Our American company merged with a french company and they've run our very profitable division into the ground, after siphoning off all of our profits. It's amazing how those f'in frogs thought socialism would trump capitalism in corporate AMERICA.

To All--God speed and the best of everything in your search. Knowing the caliber and intellect of Freepers, you'll find something soon.

[Kitten1]

CSC has locations all over the USA and overseas.

[BushCountry]

Bump

To keep hope and this thread alive! };O)

[FoxPro]

Why I Outsource Offshore

Friday, July 18, 2003

When the planes hit the World Trade Center, I was sitting in my cozy sunroom home office. Living in Fairfax County Virginia, we actually heard the plane that hit the Pentagon fly very low overhead. We knew something else was going to get hit. Then we actually heard and felt the explosion. The next minute my son and I were outside in the street looking up into the sky. We didn’t know what to expect.

I didn’t know that my life had radically changed that day; I knew the country had, that was quite apparent. But the downward spiral I was about to take wasn’t going to be pretty.

I remember telling my sons pre 9/11 about the phone calls I would get from headhunters, at least once a day. I would tell my kids’ that was real job security, having skills that were readily needed in the marketplace. I actually made $16,000 in about a day, tracking down a bug in a major government computer system. I remember working on another system on my laptop aboard a cruise ship in the Caribbean (the cruise ships had just gotten email capabilities, and my client had no idea where I was, and didn’t care). Talk about working from home! We all probably all have many great memories of the good times.

The week after 9/11, nobody returned my phone calls. I had a couple of contracts with a very large city government. We couldn’t even get into the building. Of course I later found out that the city was much more interested in detecting anthrax and acquiring and placing cement barriers than the work I was doing for them, tracking the maintenance of the cities trees and processing abandon vehicles left on the city streets. I was instantly unemployed. It was the end of an era.

It was time to send out some resumes, nothing, time to get out the Rolodex and tap into my “old boy network”, nothing. A month goes by, then two. I remember going to the local shoe retailer, because they had a sign posted looking for a store manager. I showed the current manager my resume, and he told me not to bother applying, they knew I would be gone the instant I got another tech job. Time to send out thousands of resumes, all over the world, nothing. Several months pass. I tap into my homes equity to pay the mortgage, sort of like chewing your own arm off. All my friends are doing likewise. We talk with each other, it deadens the boredom and pain, misery loves company.

Ok, so I am going to re-tool, so I buy some on-line coursework to learn Oracle 9i. I start digging in 8 hours a day, going through the coursework; I hate every second of it.

I actually started reading articles about offshore outsourcing here on freerepublic.com. I was upset by this as most people were. I had lost my wife by then, and it is apparent that the house that I had planned to play with my grandkids in will be gone soon also. I am at my low point.

Just through dumb luck, a complete stranger calls me up one day, and tells me he ran into my resume, and was impressed with my background. He tells me that over the last year, he has cobbled together a team of programmers in Moscow that can write computer systems in just about any language. He tells me they are quite good, and I believe him because I have worked with Russian programmers before. The he told me one thing that would change my career goals forever. The Russians will write computer systems, Including Oracle systems for as little as $15 per hour. In other words, I am beating my brains out to learn a computer database system that can be done elsewhere in the world for about the same price as is paid to a cahier at the local grocery store. This changes everything. I rewrite my rather lengthy resume.

I cobble together a list of email addresses of headhunters and other companies from several job boards. The title I put on my resume is “Offshore Outsourcing Project Manager”. In my resume under the skills section I put the rather lengthy list of technical skills the Russians posses. The list includes just about every major computer system I have ever come across. It is the ultimate resume. I mail out a few hundred. I don’t have to wait for long.

The next day, the phone rings. Another telemarketing call, I am thinking. The man on the other end of the line tells me he is looking at my resume. He starts explaining a project he needs accomplished, actually two projects. I have no idea what he is talking about. And I can tell he is getting frustrated. He tells me that he is going to email me his address, and I should show up the next day at 1 PM. I am excited yet confused. I don’t sleep well that night.

I am ushered into a boardroom a little after one the next day. I didn’t eat lunch, partially because I really don’t have much money, and I am a little dizzy (lost 30 pounds through the last 12 months). They start explaining the projects to me, three guys, a marker board and me for 3 hours. The last hour I am just sitting there with my mouth hanging open. I am starting to get what they want, two computer systems for arguably the largest retail chain in the world. They are massive undertakings using cutting edge technology, and it is obvious it will take dozens of programmers and other specialists (maybe more). Then they tell me how much they want to pay for all of this, and it isn’t much. But it beats the heck out of what I made in the last 6 months, which was nothing. At this point I am only thinking that I want to just get something going, anything. I just want something to do, any form of cash flow, to make some contacts and get the hell out of my house once in a while.

I instant messaged the Russians the next morning. They couldn’t believe whom the project was for or the massive scope of the undertaking. I had my Visio thing going most of the night, and I had some pretty dead on flow charts of what was explained to me, which I emailed to them. They started sending over some very impressive examples of XML scripts based on my previous nights work and the hours of conversations we had. The client liked it all. They were impressed. I could not believe what I was getting into.

We all signed the clients NDA’s, and wrangled over some small details in our various contracts. We put together a scope of work, and set a timeline with invoiceable milestones in MS Project (the Russians are very good at this also). My project leads wife had a baby, and we all send each other pictures of our kids. Weeks pass in preparation. I am starting to get to know these guys, and they work together as a precise seamless team (woman are not allowed in there office building). They work late into the night (5 PM EST is 1 AM Moscow time). The client is happy, we are busy and I can’t provide any further details for legal reasons. Suffice it to say your mother/sister/wife will probably use this system at a store near you within the next few months. And I get to point to it and say, “I did that”. I didn’t make much money off of it, but it sure beat sitting at home all day playing computer games.

A little information on the team:

They don’t speak English, but they read and write it well. In the late 80s the Russian defense industries essentially imploded, and a lot of very intelligent people were left jobless (sounds familiar). It was at about this time the Internet came into its own (well email initially). They started getting possession of US computer systems documentation. Many of them learned English by mastering these systems. It took them several years to do this. Thousands of hours of hard work and study. They are very good technical writers and write proposals and documentation like no others that I have seen. They are very productive, and are slowly getting rich (by there standards). I have never met any of them personally, but look forward to doing so someday. I do enjoy working with them. They are slowly becoming good friends.

In conclusion:

Am I taking jobs from Americans, yes, do I feel bad about this, yes, do I have any other choice other than waiting tables, no.

Should I mop floors to keep an American in a cubicle, I will let you decide.

[FoxPro]

Look at my screen name. There is no FoxPro development going on anywhere.

[FR_addict]

1. Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, NC

It took me two years to find a job after being laid off in the Raleigh-Durham area. I took the first job I was offered. I have been living in New Jersey for the last 6 months, while my spouse is still in the Raleigh-Durham area (also called RTP - Research Triangle Park). I'd say at least 65% of the employees are Visa workers at the company for which I currently work. It was probably about the same at the previous comapny in Raleigh-Durham, plus the company shipped many of the jobs to offshore companies.

Tech employees in Raleigh-Durham took a big hit during the last couple of years. Many of those laid off with me still don't have a job.

The jobs have not yet come back to that area of the country. I am still looking to move back. It is very lonely to be separated from family.

Interestingly, the pay is better than I made before the layoff. I am over 50 and have noticed more hiring of experienced people lately. Maybe they found out experience does count.

[FR_addict]

Thanks for the ping.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

"What's wrong with me? Why can't I get a decent job?"

Man, that does hit hard...and especially so when people you interview with tell you how great your resume and background looks...then never call back. And it hits when people you know express confidence in you = "the right job for you will come along".

If I had five bucks for everytime I've heard that, I wouldn't ever have to find another job.

[DugwayDuke]

Let me offer some words of encouragement. I've been there. I lost my job as a Sr. Engineer in 1994. I lived in Huntsville, Al and the defense industry took a major hit back then. Very much like what a lot of IT folks are going thru now.

I was unemployed for seven month. Then in Dec, I got two job offers in the same day. Had a choice of moving to California or Utah. I took Utah.

Bottom line. I left a town I loved to take a job paying 75% of what I was making. (Of course, even that was a major raise over unemployment) I've since moved back to Huntsville and two promotions later I'm making fifty percent more than what I was in 94. BTW, I'm 57.

My advice, keep looking. Remember, you're not really unemployed,. Your new job is finding a job. If you lose your job, take two days off. Get over it and get to work. I would go to work when G. Gordon Liddy came on at 9AM and I worked all day looking for a job.

The best advice I can offer is be prepared to lose you job, keep your debts, particularly credit cards low, just in case.

[FR_addict]

Your posts have always been so creative, I always thought you had some great media-type job.

[Bob J]

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[BushCountry]

Apologies to others who've written me on this thread. Part of my problem in responding (besides the sheer volume of initial posts here) is the new momentum/ direction that one or two have given me! 8-)

I might have another direction you might want to include/explore for this thread.  Earlier you asked how you could make this thread more helpful.  I don't know if this is practical, but how about using some of the excellent writing talent of some of the Freepers that would like to help out (I stood back from the keyboard and admired plenty of posts on this site).  By that, I mean, resume writing talent.  Almost everyone here has excellent qualifications, but there are at least 100 resumes submitted for each job.  Everyone needs a resume/cover letter that will get them noticed.

I seen all the websites with recommendations on the do's and don'ts of the best resumes and so have most of the people on this thread or those who will visit this thread.  But I would be willing to bet that the majority of the resumes/cover letters of the unemployed Freepers could use a little extra punch on their resume/cover letters.  Maybe there could be a system using Freeper mail and volunteers that are willing to help a few people out?

Just a thought.  };O)

[RockyMtnMan]

Just wanted say good luck out there and keep faith in God because he really does provide when you're in need.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

But I've never been so poor that I couldn't leave town.

(apologies to the deceased).

[Marauder]

I disagree; it's going on, but jobs aren't anywhere near as plentiful as before. I drove from Corpus Christi to Abilene several weeks ago for a VFP job interview. I did not receive the offer, but someone did.
What's your general location?

[FoxPro]

I am in Wasington DC.

[PJ-Comix]

Your posts have always been so creative, I always thought you had some great media-type job.

I did...until the collapse of web ad revenues.

[Marauder]

I receive a periodical that discusses IT biz around DC, covering Virginia, Maryland, etc. There was a comprehensive list of consulting and development companies and I faxed my resume to each and every damned one of them, and got a total of two (2) responses, both letters that said in essence, "Thanks for your interest; we will review your credentials and contact you."
Of course I've heard nothing.
Home Depot, here I come ... if they have an opening.

[BushCountry]

Bump

[Luke Skyfreeper]

A major ping to all those who have participated in the "Hard Times Saloon" thread... and to others that I know have been recently experiencing problems in the job market.

My apologies for not being on top of this thread to try and keep it going. To tell the truth, I found one of the very first suggestions so helpful that the day after I started this thread, I started a business. So I started being very busy right after starting the thread, and I've never gotten back to it until now.

The business, I still believe, is viable. It's been four months, and it's still not anywhere near supporting us; but I still believe it has the potential to do so.

In 4 months, I've brought in about $2500, and kept about $1700 of it. Yeah, chicken scratch, I know, but it's something at least. And I've gained some experience.

I'm doing freelance computer technical support, as suggested by one of the early posters. The most difficult thing about it has been getting enough customers, and getting repeat business.

But I'm sure there are some things, marketing-wise, that I could be doing better.

Besides the business, I'm doing some menial labor as well. Between the two, we're barely able to squeak by.

I did have two job interviews today (for different positions at the same company), which I think went well. Perhaps the only difference will turn out to be that I was able to be much more confident in a job interview, because to be honest, I'd like the job, the pay would be great, but I'm no longer utterly desperate, since we're at least surviving, and I think I should be able to build the business if the job thing doesn't work out.

(Knowing how much I'm making at this business, and knowing that I view my whole situation as being improved, should give you a very faint clue as to just how $*!tty the last two years have been.)

Kind of the difference between Algore and GW Bush in the 200 election. Gore's attitude was, "I've GOT to be elected President. If I'm not, it'll be like the end of the world." Bush's attitude was, "If this President thing doesn't work out, I've still got a life."

So... I'm still living in the Hard Times Saloon, but plotting an escape. I don't know yet how it will happen, but I'm increasingly confident that, sooner or later, it will.

So how's it going for you?