Berlin: A tenant had to leave his home because he flew the Israeli flag (Translation)

Israel Army Radio ^ | June 5, 2003 | Yigal Avidan, Germany

[yonif]

Translation by me from Hebrew to English,

In Berlin, a tenant had to clear his rented apartment out after he flew the Israeli flag on his apartments roof. He decided to rather leave his apartment after the owner demanded he removed the flag, due to complaints of the tenants and the spraying of the building with anti-Israel grafitti.

The owner said that the flying of the flag threatens the safety of the tenants. The man, Ralph Shroder, said that he flew the flag cause he wanted to express solidarity with his friends in Israel.

[adam_az]

"Comparisons between the 1930´s and today are a slap into the face of all who were victims of the Nazi regime and who live in Germany of today."

That would be every single member of my family that didn't flee Europe for the US after WWI.

I don't think it's all that different - there is the same official disregard for hooligans who attack Jews, there are similar political cartoons bringing back the hook-nosed stereotype of the greedy Jew and the blood-libel, and there are rallies where participants call for the deaths of all Jews.

The only argument that you could make is that the threat comes this time not from the right - but from the left. Then again, Hitler's party was a socialist party...

[adam_az]

"I think it has less to do with anti-semitism than with radical opposition to the policy of Israel. And, not to forget, that Berlin is the biggest Turkish community western of Istambul."

Ironically, Turkey has better relations with Israel than any other Muslim country.

Also, the claims that "I don't hate Jews, I am just against Israel" doesn't stand up to scrutiny for very long, typically. 99% of the folks I've met who use that argument base their position on innacurate information, and are unwilling to change their position when their "facts" are challenged with documentation. Usually, you can narrow it down just to either 1) plain old Jew-hating, 2) wacky conspiracy theories, or 3) radical left (or right) ideologue.

[Michael81Dus]

1. The times I think of did not know official disregard for assaults on jews.
2. The things that are going to happen now are not comparable with the unbelievable pain jews under the Nazi regime had to suffer from.
3. I do not know any rally where people call for the death of all jews (that would be an illegal, too).
4. Left/Right - they unite when it comes to the point that they share the same ideal: having &keeping power and hunting opponents.

[Michael81Dus]

We both know that turkish democracy needs to be defended by its generals against enemies from their parliament.
Turkey is the only democratic Muslim country we know, and an ally also, so of course relations are better.

What kind of stereotype would you call me?
I´m German, young, CDU-member, supporting the unquestionable right of existance for Israel within its current border but without Gaza and WB (status of Jerusalem needs to be clarified), supporting the road map, thinking that both sides have actively supported more hatred on each other (IDF-actions on the one side, suicide bombings etc on the other), saying that my hope for peace is gone but I´m willing to be persuaded by new facts (such as the decisions by the road map), I don´t want to hear challenges of my facts (someone called me "willfully blind") because what I saw (café bombings, destruction of EU-financed airport, residents) is enough for me.

Would you call me an anti-semit or a radical left?

[SJackson]

Well the grafitti was caused by vandals who clearly were anti-semitic. But the landlord was just trying to protect his property and his tenants.

I agree with you, it's an antisemitic incident, a sad commentary on the neighborhood, centainly nothing that resounds to Germany's credit, but not the landlords fault.

[adam_az]

"2. The things that are going to happen now are not comparable with the unbelievable pain jews under the Nazi regime had to suffer from."

That's why I said 1939 and not 1943... I can't read the future, but it's feeling a lot like the 30's. Maybe 1934 would be more acceptable a comparison for you? Sharon already made the Czechoslovakia comparison.

"3. I do not know any rally where people call for the death of all jews (that would be an illegal, too)."

Palestinians marching and demonstrating in Germany have done so, and there are a number of photos I've seen of men and children (!) dressed up as suicide bombers, fake bomb belt and all.

[adam_az]

No, you didn't say much in that sentence or three. :)

I'm curious -

1) What do you think is the legal or historical basis for creating Palestinian state?

2) Do you think that all Jews should move from the Judea and Samaria? (the historic names for what is commonly called the West Bank)

3) What do you think of Palestinian "refugees" demands to move to a country they profess to hate?

[Michael81Dus]

Oh, I thought of the time 1933-1945 - and during that time, the officials had no disregard for assaults on jews. They just have let it happen and later organized it.

Nobody is selling out Israel, the road map is a good chance to get some activity in the peace process, and of course Palestine should become a real state - and the settlers have to leave their homes, too. That was the worst idea in MidEast to finance homes on Palestinian land. It caused unnecessary hatred...

Regarding the marching Palestinians: I´d be curious what the consequences were. Calling for the death of all jews is definitely a crime here (§ 140 penalty law book, "Promoting hatred against peoples").

[Michael81Dus]

ad 1) I don´t think that there´s a need for "right of the earliest". Two peoples (Israeli and Palestinian) live in a small land. Both have been there since... ever. The land should be divided (Gaza, WB to Palestinians), with safe borders (fences, maybe mines, etc).

ad 2) Yes, I think all settlers should leave Gaza and WB. This land should be given to the Palestinians, btw, Jews wouldn´t be safe there either.

ad 3) If you meant with #3 that Palestinian people, who were forced to move to Gaza and WB ("refugees"), should be given the right to go back, I´d say no. Like the settlers should leave Gaza and WB, no Palestinian should live in the Israeli homeland (and I do exclude Gaza and WB of that homeland).

[SJackson]

I think it has less to do with anti-semitism than with radical opposition to the policy of Israel. And, not to forget, that Berlin is the biggest Turkish community western of Istambul.

Yikes. Turkey has a pretty good relationship with Israel. You implication is certainly out of character for the Turks who post on FR, admittedly conservatives. If you want to find non-German culprits, I wouldn’t look to the Turks.

A tenant has not the right to do what he wants with "his windows". Usually, the contract says that he has to ask for written permission of the house-owner. I guess the Israel-supporter hasn´t done that...

Not the issue. Anti-Semitic graffiti and the risk to tenants of flying an Israeli flag, not any flag, was the issue. That’s a problem. If an observant Jew, readily identifiable visually, lived in the building and posed a risk, would he have to move too, or simply change his pattern of dress?

Comparisons between the 1930´s and today are a slap into the face of all who were victims of the Nazi regime and who live in Germany of today.

Then they should revisit the history of the late 19th and early 20th century. Jews considered Germany one of the safest places in the world to live. Like America, one of the greatest concerns of the Jewish community was assimilation. Germans who recognize their own victimization at the hands of National Socialism should be sensitive to the early warning signals.

The things that are going to happen now are not comparable with the unbelievable pain jews under the Nazi regime had to suffer from., of course not, but be sensitive to their beginnings. It starts with desensitization>

I do not know any rally where people call for the death of all jews (that would be an illegal, too).

I could direct you to them. Of course, we don’t have the same laws as Germany, so they’d be here in the US

What kind of stereotype would you call me?

I enjoy your posts, but I think you’re a touch naïve, and while I accept your description of yourself as a young conservative German, some of your positions are going to be challenged on an American conservative site, they’re just aren’t always the same thing. Get used to it.

I’ll ignore the rest, since you’ve told me before you don’t want to discuss the middle east, but YOU HAVE TO STOP BRINGING UP THOSE MORAL EQUIVALENCIES, SUICIDE BOMBER=DESTROYING HIS HOUSE, assuming you really don’t want to discuss them. Your facts aren’t facts.

[adam_az]

"I don´t think that there´s a need for "right of the earliest". Two peoples (Israeli and Palestinian) live in a small land. Both have been there since... ever. The land should be divided (Gaza, WB to Palestinians), with safe borders (fences, maybe mines, etc)."

Even though most of the "Palestinians" are the descendents of recent immigrants who moved to Israel because of the economic opportunity created by Diaspora Jews returning to their homeland?

If you think the "Palestinians" are an ancient people - going back in history, when and where was their country called Palestine? Who were it's leaders? What were it's great cultural achievements? The truth is that the Palestinian identity was coined *after* 1967. There was no Palestinian identity or national movement before 1948, or between 1948 and 1967 for that matter.

"Yes, I think all settlers should leave Gaza and WB. This land should be given to the Palestinians, btw, Jews wouldn´t be safe there either."

The "West Bank" is an artificiality that was illegally occupied by Jordan after 1948. It contains the Tomb of the Patriarch, which is Abrahams tomb. Hebron is the most ancient Jewish city, and has had continuous Jewish inhabitance for about 3500 years give or take (I'm not an archaeologist) with the exception of the Jordanian expulsion. There are 1.3 million Palestinian CITIZENS of Israel - why should Jews not be able to live in a future Palestine?

" If you meant with #3 that Palestinian people, who were forced to move to Gaza and WB ("refugees"), should be given the right to go back, I´d say no. Like the settlers should leave Gaza and WB, no Palestinian should live in the Israeli homeland (and I do exclude Gaza and WB of that homeland)."

They weren't FORCED to move by Israelis - they were URGED to leave temporarily to allow the genocidal Arab attack in 1948 to move in and destroy everything and kill all the Jews.

The real problem is Arab rejectionism of the right for Israel to exist. Israel has tried to make peace with it's neighbors for 55 years, but there hasn't ever been a willing participant on the other side, except for the cold peace with Jordan and Egypt that is only paid for by US tax dollars to a monarchy and a dicatorship.

You are not an antisemite, but I would say that your knowlege of recent and ancient Middle East history is lacking enough that the opinions you expressed are not based on real data, but rather on popular oft-repeated misconceptions.

[adam_az]

"Nobody is selling out Israel, the road map is a good chance to get some activity in the peace process, and of course Palestine should become a real state - and the settlers have to leave their homes, too."

Legally, it's disputed territory - not occupied territory, and most of the "settlements" are completely legal communities, despite what some leftists purport.

What is the legal basis under which you think that there should be no Jews living in historic Judea and Samaria?

[SJackson]

ad 1) I don´t think that there´s a need for "right of the earliest". Two peoples (Israeli and Palestinian) live in a small land….

Forget about Biblical interpretations. The modern political landscape of the middle east was shaped by the defeat of the German-Turkish alliance in WWI. The land belonged to Tukey. The Turks picked the wrong side, lost the war, and lost the land. The Brits and French got to divide it up, which they did. Go back and read the background in the Treaty of Paris and the British mandate (the Balfour Declaration would give you some good background as well, though it’s pre WWI). It all started at the same time. The incipient dream of the Jewish state, the incipient dreams of terrorist states like Syria and Iraq.

The original Jewish homeland was dramatically reduced when TransJordan was detached in 1922. The Brits priority was creating Arab states which they did, from Syria to Saudi Arabia. They dragged their feet till after WWII, when they quit and turned it over to the UN.

Israel got the tiny stub left from their original projected state, settled for it, and then, as now got on with the job of defending themselves from the Arab hordes who have refused every effort to recognize a Jewish state in the middle east.

If Israel is an illegitimate state, so is Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, et al. Israel’s legal claim to the West Bank and Gaza is as strong as anyones, no state claims the land. Neither Turkey, nor Jordan, nor Egypt, the nations who previously administered that land claim them.

Re, that Palestinian people, who were forced to move to Gaza and WB ("refugees"), should be given the right to go back, I´d say no. Like the settlers should leave Gaza and WB, no Palestinian should live in the Israeli homeland, that’s nonsense. First of all, plenty of Arabs (that’s what Palestinians are) live in Israel. They work, vote, have their own political parties, serve in the IDF (volunteer), serve in the Knesst, have served on the Supreme Court. The issue isn’t Arabs living in Israel. It’s Jews anywhere in the mideast (including Israel) which is unacceptable to the Arab world, unless they’re dead. Even then, they have a history of using the gravestones to pave the roads. Your approach to this topic is naïve.

[Michael81Dus]

Although it´s after midnight here, I´ll just decided to answer you now.

Reg. Turkey: Do the Turks know that their country has a good relationship with Israel? And, it´s a matter of fact that many crimes against jews are committed by arabs, all over the world. No offense taken against the Rep. of Turkey of Turkish Freepers (why should I?).

Reg.: The dress is not an issue the houseowner can decide on. If the jew wanted to be easily identified as a jew (like the orthodox), he of course can do so.

Reg.: Why I think it is a slap for today´s Germany to compare it, is, because we have stricter laws and keep an eye on the security of our jewish communities. We know that they´re at risk, so our police takes care of them. This time, the state is actively on the side of those who need protection.

I can understand that some may get the impression that I´m naive. And I can explain from what that results. I´m actually not very good in English, I have to look up for one/two words every second post I read. I´m just a bit too lazy to read carefully (so that I misinterprete some messages) or to post precise and long messages, so that me and my discussion partners come to the point first after three or four exchanges. And, I do not post English sources or statistics of my statements, because that takes too much time for me to search the web for facts I´ve read e.g. in my newspaper.

I think I haven´t brought up that moral equivalence this time... and that´s a point on which I´m too lazy or tired to follow each new step of the MidEast peace process. I have different tests and I´m preparing for an 8-week-reserve training in summer after which I may be appointed to be Lt 2nd class, so I just say "evil is evil" - I don´t say that suicide bombings and destructions of houses etc are morally equal. I just say that I don´t differentiate between these forms of escalation (because I´m tired of that too). That´s why I blame both sides for the escalation of conflict.

In these days, I have expressed a lot my opinions on Mid East, just to show you that there are people, who have nothing against jews, but who have nothing against the simple Palestinian on the street and who just gets tired of all that violence there.

It´s not that I wanted to argue with you about it. It´s just an exchange of opinions without confrontation.

[Beck_isright]

But don't worry the Germans said, they don't have the "camps" re-opened.....yet.....

[ffusco]

Mien freund redlich,

How are you today?

Franz
; )

[ffusco]

Congratulations in advance on your promotion, Lt.

[adam_az]

"And, I do not post English sources or statistics of my statements, because that takes too much time for me to search the web for facts I´ve read e.g. in my newspaper."

If you mostly read German papers, therein lies the problem...

SJackson was literally correct about paving the streets with gravestones BTW. The Arabs notoriously and all over the middle east have used ancient Jewish gravestones to pave roads with, both for cheap (free) building materials and also to erase the evidence of Jewish presence from their "pure" islamic land.

If all you know of the conflict is from the European press, then you can't help but to be misinformed, I'm sad to say!

[BabsC]

First - You are doing very well writing in a second language, one of which is the most difficult.

Second - Palestinian Arabs, as opposed to Palestinain Christians and Palestinian Jews, should be assimilated just as the Iraelis assimilated over 700,000 Arabic Jews in the early '50s. Safardic Jews I believe are still the majority in Israel. They were the only "refugees" of the time in that region, forced to leave their homes and businesses behind. If they were not forced to leave they were forced to stay out of Israel and be "dhimmis" for the Muslims. You do know that non-muslims in muslim dominated countries must pay a dhimmi tax. Basically protection money to live from day to day.

The Arabs refuse to assimilated anyone that would reduce the number of UN designated refugees as that would reduce their handouts from us Infidels. The Arabs maintain the "refugee" camps just to have cannon fodder to push Israel into the sea.

[ffusco]

"The Arabs refuse to assimilated anyone that would reduce the number of UN designated refugees as that would reduce their handouts from us Infidels. The Arabs maintain the "refugee" camps just to have cannon fodder to push Israel into the sea."

Ya gotta be f#%king kidding me, those barbarians.