Gays, lesbians lash out at (Catholic) church

The Boston Globe ^ | 5/31/03 | By Yvonne Abraham, Globe Staff

[GrandMoM]

Gay and lesbian groups said yesterday that the Catholic Church, under siege for the clergy abuse scandal, lacks the moral authority to mobilize parishioners against same-sex marriage. They are urging parishioners to walk out of services if priests voice the church's opposition to same-sex unions and to boycott church collections.

[sakic]

Its time for the Catholic Church to administer a little church discipline on these dissenters.

What is church discipline?

[7 x 77]

I did this morning. It was lumped in with abortion but it was right there.

Could you give more details: the wording, the location?

[sakic]

It must be a spot where, once domiciled, they coulnd't leave. Perhaps surrounded by crocodiles and sharks.

Your plan is somewhat like Hitler's strategy of putting them in ovens.

[Little Bill]

Granny

The fisting thing was at Tufts in Medford. I camped at the school committee meetings when my daughter was in Government school, her choise, I read some of the texts. My son went to the Voke, his choise, probably the best school in town.

All of my siblings went to private schools, unlike Kali, we seem to have some effect. In this city we have fired three of the last four School Supers for being ineffectual. We have no problem getting a lot of people together to oppose thingss that are inapproprate.

[YankeeReb]

So much for `He who is without sin should cast the first stone,''' said David Breen, a Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus board member and a Catholic. ''For four decades the church was promoting and protecting priests who abused children.

Where to begin..... This person may have come from a catholic family, and grown up in the church, but how you can be part of an orginization promoting homosexuality and call yourself a catholic is beyond me.

One glaring thing I noticed is that throughout the article they constantly refer to "Priests who abuse childeren". It's CONVENIENTLY left out that these were HOMOSEXUALS ABUSING LITTLE BOYS. They make it sound is if it was done equally to both sexes. I bet if you were to ask Mr Breen how he feels about NAMBLA he'd say "Well personally I'm opposed, but that's a freedom of speech issue, they're allowed to advocate what they want." ... or some such blather. These militant homosexuals always manage to find room in their "gay pride" parades for the likes of NAMBLA, then go about chastising people who disagree with their perverted point of view.

[YankeeReb]

Your plan is somewhat like Hitler's strategy of putting them in ovens.

The really ironic thing is that many in the inner circle of the Nazi party were homosexuals themselves. Kind of like a group of militant homosexuals saying the church has no moral authority because of the homosexual acts of a few priests.

[kuma]

No agenda here! Please look the other way while we brainwash your children in Sunday School.

[SuziQ]

Gay and lesbian groups said yesterday that the Catholic Church, under siege for the clergy abuse scandal, lacks the moral authority to mobilize parishioners against same-sex marriage

I'm sure they wish that were true, but they're gonna find out that Catholics can seperate the two situations quite well, and know that BOTH are bad news.

[SuziQ]

Duddy said she had heard from a number of people who intend to walk out of services tomorrow if priests speak out against same-sex marriage, and to challenge priests who include a statement of the church's opposition in bulletins

Note to self: Remember to sent an e-mail to Fr. Paul THANKING him for including the statement!

[SuziQ]

''I think one does have to stop and ask why is this the very first major political stand the bishops of Massachusetts are taking after this crisis,''

Uh, because it's the first one that has come up? Except for the wariness of the Church about the War in Iraq, there hasn't been much that the Church HAS talked about here in the State.

I hope Massachusetts Catholics will realize what the homosexual activists are doing and reject it. Unfortunately, the Catechesis in this area over the years seems to have left a lot to be desired judging by the knowledge of their faith of many Catholics I know here.

[GrandMoM]

BUMP for later! THANKS!

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Gays, lesbians lash out at (Catholic) church

Idolators of perversion.

[longtermmemmory]

From the Pink Swastika

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/pinkswastika.hold/index.html



""Homosexuality in the Concentration Camps



We have now arrived at one of the most sensitive topics in our discussion of homosexuality in Nazi Germany. As we have noted, revisionists have attempted to define homosexuals as a class of people who were ``targeted for extermination'' by the Nazis. One homosexual group went so far as to stage a high-profile ``pilgrimage'' to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem in May of 1994. They were met by a delegation of Jewish Holocaust survivors who were so overcome with outrage that some of them had to be restrained from physically assaulting the contingent of (mostly American) political activists. One man cried, ``My grandfather was killed for refusing to have sexual relations with the camp commandant. You are desecrating this place...'' (The Jerusalem Post, May 30, 1994).
Yet, as we have noted, some homosexuals did in fact die in Nazi concentration camps. We do not diminish the tragedy of any life lost under the Nazi reign of terror; however, we must reject the implication that homosexuals as a class should be given moral equivalency to the Jewish people and other victims of genocide. There are five reasons why we must reject this claim of the revisionists.
First, we know that regardless of Himmler's anti-homosexual rhetoric, homosexuals as a class were never targeted for extermination, as their continued role in the Third Reich demonstrates. Second, those homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers. Third, though we cannot condone the form of punishment meted out by the Nazis, homosexual sodomy was a legitimate crime of long-standing for which individuals were being jailed both before and after the Nazi Regime (and in this country during the same time period). This is in contrast to the internment of Jewish people, whose ethnicity is morally (and in pre-Nazi Germany, legally) neutral. Fourth, the actual number of homosexuals in the camps was a tiny fraction of both the estimated number of homosexuals in Germany and the estimate of the camp population. The camp homosexual population, estimated at 5,000-15,000 by Joan Ringelheim of the US Holocaust museum (Rose:40), contained an undetermined percentage of non-homosexuals falsely labeled as homosexuals (see section titled ``Anti-homosexual Policies'' above). Homosexuals who died were ``a small fraction of less than 1 percent'' of homosexuals in Nazi-occupied Europe (S. Katz:146), compared to more than 85 percent of European Jewry. Fifth and last, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the idea that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned.
""

"""M]any of those convicted under Paragraph 175 were not homosexual: some were opponents of the regime such as Catholic priests or leaders of youth groups who were prosecuted on the basis of perjured testimony, while others were street hustlers from Berlin or Hamburg who had been caught up in a police dragnet (Johansson in Dynes:997).


As many as 6,000 of the approximately 10,000 ``pink triangles'' died in the work camps, but few, if any, were gassed in the death camps. Some of those who died met their deaths at the hands of homosexual Kapos (``trustees'') and guards of the SS. At first glance it is difficult to understand why the homosexual leaders of the Nazi men would persecute other homosexuals on the basis of their sexual behavior. We alluded, in the matter of the Sex Research Institute, to the fact that the homosexual movement in Germany was divided into two diametrically opposed camps which some have called the ``Femmes'' and the ``Butches.'' These terms are common among homosexuals today, as is the disdain ``Butches'' feel for ``Femmes.''
A researcher of the homosexual movement Gordon Westwood writes that masculine homosexuals ``deplore [effeminate] behavior,'' many considering effeminate homosexuals ``repulsive'' (Westwood:87). Another researcher, H. Kimball Jones, reports that reaction to ``Femmes'' is often violent in the general homosexual community. ``[They label them] `flaming faggot' or `degenerate fag,''' with one homosexual exclaiming, ``You know, I loathe these screaming fairies'' (H.K.Jones:29). Jay and Young's 1979 examination of the American homosexual movement, The Gay Report, contains numerous personal statements by masculine homosexuals critical of effeminacy. ``Femme behavior can be vicious and destructive, demeaning to women and gay men,'' says one. Another asserts, ``To me someone who is `femme' is a self-indulgent...petty, scheming, gossipy gay being whose self-image has been warped and shaped by unfortunate family situations'' (Jay:294ff).
The most hostile to ``Femmes'' are precisely those homosexuals who deem themselves the most ``masculine.'' In The Homosexual Matrix, C.A. Tripp writes that ``[f]ar to the other extreme, there are a number of utterly masculine, sometimes supermasculine homosexuals....They are obses- sed with everything male and eschew anything weak or effeminate...."""

[longtermmemmory]

what I am finding is that the regular parishoners do not see homosexual priests as part of the faith. Homosexual priests are attacking the faith just as the abusers. The faith has the moral authority, the criminals and UNfaithful infesting the clergy are seen as the problem of the church. Their removal is the solution.

[Kuksool]

{What is church discipline?}

Here is an article about the subject of church discipline.
___________________________________________________________

Why We Need Church Discipline

Note: This commentary was delivered by Prison Fellowship President Mark Earley.

Some argue that it doesn’t pay to exercise church discipline these days. Why? People outside the Church get too upset.

Consider the case of Catholic Archbishop George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Pell denies Holy Communion to Catholic homosexuals who don’t accept church teachings on homosexuality. A biblical approach to sexuality is "essential for human well-being [and] for the continuity of the human race," he notes.

Now, Pell has sponsored AIDS hospices and shown compassion to those infected with this deadly disease. Nevertheless, homosexual activists are outraged over his views and loudly protested his appointment as Archbishop in 2001.

Then there’s Cardinal Juan Luis Cipriani of Lima, Peru. Eighteen months ago, Cipriani announced that politicians who oppose church teachings on abortion would be denied communion. Who became outraged over this? Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

And when the Southern Baptist Convention took steps to cut ties with churches that allow homosexuals to serve as pastors, critics couldn’t wait to wrap the "narrow-minded bigot" label around them.

But aren’t these churches simply upholding their standards? As Chuck Colson and Ellen Vaughn point out in their new book, Being the Body, churches have never portrayed themselves as democracies. "The church is hierarchical and authoritarian and ultimately answerable only to God," they write.

So why should anyone join a church and then expect to be permitted to flout its authority? After all, for failing to attend enough meetings, you can be thrown out of the Rotary Club. Violate the dress code, and you’ll be tossed out of many country clubs. And if you don’t perform community service, you can be kicked out of the Junior League. Yet the minute churches impose discipline on their members, they’re charged with everything up to and including fascism.

Shouldn’t the Church have at least the same right to set its own standards as a country club? If people don’t like them, they’re free to leave—assuming they’re members in the first place.

Whether church members like it or not, the Church must discipline its members. As Colson and Vaughn warn, "When we fail to discipline, the church does not become more ‘relevant’ to the world around us. It simply loses its moral authority."

Discipline should be applied not only to enforce right doctrine, but also to uphold right behavior. Sermons on holy living are meaningless unless the Church is willing to back them up with action—even if doing so is unpleasant, which it often is. As theologian Greg Bahnsen put it: "Discipline guards the purity of the Church, preserves the Church by removing evil, and provides severe but loving correction for one who is in danger of falling into perdition."

Without effective discipline, there can be no accountability and, thus, no spiritual growth.

We’ve heard a lot lately about politicians being told by their churches to toe the line, theologically speaking—or face the consequences. When we read stories like these, we need to remember why church discipline is vitally important. It’s a mark, not of intolerance and repression, as critics claim, but of faithful obedience to God and loving pastoral care for Christians.

[ModernDayCato]

I saw it posted here several times, and it bears repeating...it's not the Catholic church that is opposed to homosexuality...it's God.

As we techies like to say...RTFM (For non-techies - Read the F--king Manual).

My grandmother has gone to Catholic church at least once a week for 80 years. My wife quoted a Bible passage to her and she didn't recognize it. How could she? She's never actually opened the Bible, and they 'never covered that in church.'

[Houmatt]

So homosexuals are blasting the Catholic Church not because of the pedophilia scandals, but because of same-sex marriage.

Rather telling, don't you think?

[SuziQ]

It’s a mark, not of intolerance and repression, as critics claim, but of faithful obedience to God and loving pastoral care for Christians.

It's called TOUGH LOVE; at least those at whom it is aimed think it is tough!

[Clint N. Suhks]

What is church discipline?

Something that might cause a bolt of lightning to strike pornographers if they didn’t constantly slither back under their rock.

[BillyBoy]

Where's Michael Moore to show up with a camera and yap at them that the POPE says it's a SIN-- and we all know that Mikey REALLY CARES what the Pope has to say now. </ sarcasm>