See men shredded, then say you don't back war (MUST, MUST READ!)

The Times ^ | March 18, 2003 | Ann Clwyd

[MadIvan]

“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.

The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.

[IronJack]

It's interesting that the Left's usual bleeding hearts -- Amnesty International, for example -- are mysteriously silent on the human rights abuses in Iraq. These are the same people who focus on the "deplorable" conditions in Guantanamo -- you know, like domestic champagne, no valet service, that sort of thing. But the notion of people getting shredded and fed to the koi doesn't seem to bother them.

If one didn't know better, one could almost detect the foul whiff of duplicity.

[ChuckHam]

Clamboat, you are always good for a laugh! I'm sure that's why Jim keeps you around.

People like clamboat (IMHO) are kept around just like murrymom and tuco-bad......

So they can be properly ridiculed and show us what true clowns and sorry excuses for human beings the left really is composed of.

[Enduring Freedom]

Debating the truth of specific eyewitness accounts of the atrocities of Saddam Hussein must be a place of high honor to you.

Not that you miss the point, of course.

Congratulations, and keep on spreading your truths to the world.

Did you know that Bush was once arrested for drunk driving?

Better get that one out again before the war begins.

Weapons of Mass Destruction pointed at your pointy head? No worries, take as much time as you need to discuss whether the victims went in feet first.

[GOPJ]

He's a monster. If you've never met an evil person, count your blessings.

In our country the monsters are in jail or their way. In Iraq they run the place. Think of the worse criminal you've ever heard of -- someone who tortures his victims before killing them. Then think of that person running the country. That's Iraq.

[fishboy]

I think you are combining two seperate types of abuse. They hang women by the hair AND they hang them upside down during their menstrual cycles (but not by the hair). For the record, I believe it and I can wait for the military show on FOX over the next few weeks.

[ErnBatavia]

Clamboat is right, Ivan - it never happened.

[error99]

"...If there are valid reasons for the U.S. to go to war against Iraq, then let those reasons stand on their own. I hate going through a situation like this only to get a feeling at such a late date that I'm being manipulated..."
- -
Your Canadian influence is showing...
For you and your Canuck pals:
get a grip, have a sip of a cold one,
and we will take out the world's trash.
As usual - with you "watching our backs".
Thanks for nothing Canada (AKA "Eastern France").

[wtc911]

Actually, the article does nothing to highlight the duplicity of the left regarding Bush, Rumsfeld, et al..There are no comparisons made and no conclusions drawn in that direction. There is a statement of frustration, rightly felt, that the UN has a double standard vis a vis behaviour by nations supported by certain permanent members of the SC.

This is a propaganda piece (please remember that not all that is used as propaganda is untrue). As such it is effective. But, it does not paint a reason to go to war...at least not one that is supported by historical and current foreign policy decisions.

We are going to war in Iraq to reshape the globe, and I 'm all for it. If we don't do this now then the task could become impossible later. All else is gravy.

[JusPasenThru]

Will mention this to my favorite deity so that He might do someting about that.

[MadIvan]

Clamboat is right, Ivan - it never happened.

How would you know?

Ivan

[fishboy]

Corr: I can('t) wait for the military show on Fox over the next few weeks.

[CyberAnt]

Yeah, it really irked me when the French guy said that we withdrew our resolution because we knew the MAJORITY of the SC would not vote for it. However, earlier, I heard that we had 10 votes for the use of force - but with the French promising a veto, there was no point in taking the vote.

If there are 15 members of the SC, then 10 votes IS A MAJORITY for using force - and the French guy is lying again.

[wtc911]

The Kuwaiti girl was exposed publicly as a fraud. She was used to gull congress with admittedly made up tales of these hospital atrocities. Clinging to them as somehow verifying what is in this article works against the cause.

[wtc911]

Not for nothing....your page says you're 51...what was your draft # and how did you get into the guard?

[templar]

How do you hang someone upside down by their hair? :)

I should think that would depend on what hair they were being hung by.

[MadIvan]

I would suggest that people look at clamboat's profile; he is an obvious leftist who is here for the same "punching bag" value that MurryMom provides. He also revels in this role; as such I have no intention of satisfying his masochistic tendencies.

Finally, given Saddam's record of brutality towards his own people, these charges should neither come as a surprise, nor should be dismissed out of hand.

Ivan

[MadIvan]

The Kuwaiti girl was exposed publicly as a fraud. She was used to gull congress with admittedly made up tales of these hospital atrocities. Clinging to them as somehow verifying what is in this article works against the cause.

I said nothing about the Kuwaiti girl. Just as a reminder, yesterday was the anniversary of the day when Saddam Hussein used mustard gas on his own people. Do I believe a man who is capable of that, and who holds Joseph Stalin to be an idol is capable of such brutality as described in this article? I would be a greater fool not to believe it. And so would you.

Ivan

[clamboat]

I think I'm still around because I try not to step over the line into and become a liberal advocate. In this particular instance I'm simply pointing out how very convenient it is to come in at the eleventh hour with more tales of atrocities that cannot be confirmed or denied.

The last time the administration tried this they got caught - or are you still going to tell me that the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter really did see this nasty Iraqi soldiers steal those baby incubators?? Doesn't matter that they lie to you (and to congress!), because incredulous people will keep repeating the lie as fact.

Some people on this threat think that the very real holocaust somehow justifies throwing out all critical thinking and to believe any incredible tale of tourture and rape no matter how self-serving the observer.

[wtc911]

Didn't say that you mentioned the Kuwaiti girl. I do maintain though that any attempt to bolster that renounced story (How do you know?) does more harm than good. I need no reminder of those things that Sadam can do. He is evil and we will likely find evidence of this and worse. But this type of manifestation of his evil is not why we are going to war. If he were behaving in the exact same manner but Iraq happened to be in Central Africa we would not have a quarter million fighting men at his doorstep. And, as for the article, propaganda is just that, even if it turns out to be accurate. If anyone doubts its effectiveness, just read half the posts on this thread.

[ErnBatavia]

Clamboat is right, Ivan - it never happened.

How would you know?

Ive, that "baby in the incinerator" thing got totally disproven within months after the liberation of Kuwait.

(I note your other reply....MurryMom is beyond help!)