See men shredded, then say you don't back war (MUST, MUST READ!)

The Times ^ | March 18, 2003 | Ann Clwyd

[error99]

And I am seriously hoping and praying that we, in the aftermath of 9/11
are setting a new course in these international relations.
I am seriously hoping and praying that we cut out all the double-dealing.
I am hoping that this episode in Iraq is a step towards taking care of
some of the past wrongs, and settling unfinished business in the world.
Stuff that goes on, flares up, and cools down, but never really gets resolved.
Korea comes to mind.
That puppy ain't settled down to go to sleep yet.
He keeps a yelping and a crying wanting some attention.
He's gonna go to bed and hush or his turn is coming too.
and that one, I fear ain't gonna be the cake-walk
that I think this little exercise in Iraq is going to be.

[error99]

"...the U.S. does not function as the world's police officer..."
- -
Oh, con-traire - mon-frer.
I do beg to differ...
Oh, hell yes, we do.
Should we?
I don't know.
But do we?
Oh hell yes.
I guess it is because nobody else will.

[AndrewC]

This is not to suggest that Iraq had any "right" to invade Kuwait in 1990, but something like this makes me cynical enough to constantly question the motives of anyone who pushes the U.S. into war with another nation.

Cynicism should have some basis.

Iraq-Kuwait border dispute

The impetus behind Iraq’s claims to Kuwait does not stem from historical will, but rather from Iraq’s desire to secure a deep-water port. The major point of conflict between the two states concerns the “Kuwaiti islands of Bubiyan and Warbah that dominate the estuary leading to the southern Iraqi port of Umm Qasr. Beginning in the early 1970s, Iraq's desire to develop a deep-water port on the Gulf led to demands that the two islands be transferred or leased to Iraq.” Kuwait’s refusal spurred Iraq to move troops into a Kuwaiti border post in 1973. This action prompted broad Arab condemnation, leading to Iraq’s subsequent withdrawal.[18]

From the signing of the Agreed Minutes in 1963 until 1990, Iraq ceased openly declaring that Kuwait was part of Iraq, but they did repeatedly state that the international border between Iraq and Kuwait was not defined. In 1990, Iraq began to reassert its claim to Kuwaiti territory. Yet, despite the Iraqi declarations questioning Kuwait’s sovereignty, Iraq has long treated Kuwait as an independent state in the international arena. Previous to 1990, the two states enjoyed mutual diplomatic recognition, both states were members of the same international bodies, and Iraq regularly communicated with Kuwait using language that denotes a recognition of statehood.[19]

Of course, this is the Kuwaiti side of the story. You can dig up the Iraqi side if you wish. But I believe it would be as valid as the present Iraqi claims on WMD.

[Alberta's Child]

In post #137 I gave the U.S. side of the story, which would seem to be the most relevant side of all in this case.

[VMI70]

So am I.
Want to get together and offer our services the the highest bidder in the reconstruction of Iraq?
News here is that Bush is going to have civilians handle the reconstruction. We could probably make a pretty good amount in fairly short order.

[Captiva]

What kind of sick, base, demented, M.F. sits around and thinks this stuff up?

The same kind of idyllic, &%*$#@!, hippie, peacenik who denies such things can happen. The same kind of person who stands in front of a bulldozer.

That's who.

[Lester Moore]

A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

[ErnBatavia]

Do you ever sleep? My rough estimate of your post showed it would have been close to 3am your time by your reply!

[Eva]

Thanks, that's reassuring.

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

I've recently been rereading portions of the late Balint Vazonyi's America's 30 Years War - Who is winning? I'm convinced this is a continuation of the struggle between the Anglo-American and Franco-Germanic view of how man organizes the society in which he lives.

It is also a blatent attempt on the part of France to become the major player in Europe. What the stupid French don't realize is that Germany is in charge. They have set the poodle to barking while they lie low. In the end the Germans will attempt to dissemble their stance and put on the disguise of the rational power of Europe. After 100 years, Germany will finally win control the continent without firing a shot.

[Vic3O3]

Thanks for posting the info--I wonder what it would take to oust the French from NATO? And I woinder what the German economy would do if we pulled out 90k troops out of their country? After all, just who are they "defending" Germany against?

[Constitution Day]

Refute THIS, anti's!

[dfwgator]

If they could force Slobodan Milosevic to stand trial in The Hague, where are the calls to send Saddam there as well?? Saddam has committed crimes much more terrible than Slobo, yet if he wanted to, he could live the rest of his days in cushy exile.

[ApesForEvolution]

Wow. I appreciate the post MI. Do we have time to send over 1,000,000 more 'human shields'?

[GraniteStateConservative]

An article that has this atrocity in it

[ApesForEvolution]

You don't think you could do it at gunpoint? You wouldn't take a bullet in your brain 1,000,000 times over before throwing an innocent man, woman or child into a shredder??

[Husker24]

You don't think you could do it at gunpoint? You wouldn't take a bullet in your brain 1,000,000 times over before throwing an innocent man, woman or child into a shredder??

Of course I would take a bullet in a heartbeat before doing this, I said I dont think I could throw someone into a shredder even at gunpoint. Im not sure what your arguement is here.

[Mr. Silverback]

That's a bizarre statement in and of itself, considering that the complaint we had against Saddam Hussein was his invasion of Kuwait.

Please grab a clue. What I meant was I didn't make my decision to back the Gulf War based on some emir telling tales of fake atrocities. Your posts in this thread seem to indicate that you think it's "bizarre" if people want to go to war without being lied to first, and you also seem to have trouble believing the very real atrocities committed by some of the most evil regimes in human history. If you'll go back to my earlier post, you will find a whole list of times that horrible atrocities were dismissed as propaganda. Even if the ones Ivan posted here were crap there is ample evidence that Hussein has done things every bit as bad for a long time. Like I said, one emir tells some fibs and you're going to discount every torture story you hear after that? Hardly logical.

[k2blader]

There are (very sick) people in this very forum who think these atrocities are fabricated.