Posted on 10/21/2002 9:04:51 AM PDT by jern
BREAKING: Archaeologists Report 1st Direct Evidence of Jesus
So were many others.
So the RCC would retain the wealth, if any of the priest. Sounds unBiblical and a tad self serving. Up until the 5th century priests married.
Statues to pray to, counting beads, dead saints, gay priests, confess to sinning and do it again the next day because you've "been cleared."
The gay priest issue is a tremendous controversy around the world, but most priests ARE NOT gays and/or pedophiles. The vast majority are great men. The rest of your comments are coming from a Protestant misunderstanding of what the Catholic church does.
The point of confession is not to have our sins forgiven and then go back to a life of sin. The point is to "go and sin no more." Yes, we're humans, and we're prone to sin again. But we're supposed to try and avoid sin after we confess our sins.
We don't "pray" to statues. We pray to God, the Holy Trinity, and we ask the saints to intercede for us (in other words, pray for us, since they are in heaven). Yes, the saints are dead, because in order to be a saint, you have to be dead. Statues are "sacred images," which are described in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. What the Church teaches how one is to treat "sacred images" and what people do personally (mistreating sacred images and committing idolatry) are two different things. Catholics (and Orthodox Christians) aren't supposed to treat the saints, representations of saints, or even representations of Jesus as the people themselves. They are not present in these physical objects. Only the Holy Trinity is God. This is described in this excerpt from the Catechism.
Holy images
1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images:
Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.
1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:
We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other's meaning.
1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses" who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness," who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:
Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.
1162 "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God." Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart's memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.
Even with all of this, the Catholic Church is very clear about what idolatry is, and it is based strictly on the 10 Commandments. Here is what the Church teaches on idolatry:
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."
If you're going to follow your line of reasoning, you're going to have to condemn the Orthodox Christians too, not just Catholics. But I don't see many of the so-called "Bible-believing" Christians doing that.
Not one homosexual pedophile who rapped a child is in prison. What's that tell you? Who's in charge, anyway?
The point of confession is not to have our sins forgiven.....The point is to "go and sin no more."
How do you know the Lord has forgivin your sins? Holy E-Mail? The Lord already said "Go and sin no more." Why say it again? Don't they already teach that in your church?
We don't "pray" to statues. ....What the Church teaches how one is to treat "sacred images" ....
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of heaven......"(Commandment # 2)
Yes, the saints are dead, because in order to be a saint, you have to be dead.
"Why do you speak to the dead? Leave the dead to the dead, and follow me."
If they are engaging in church rituals not listed in the Holy Bible, They're not that blatant about it.
Let's review...
Mt 1:25, "And knew her not till...". The old meaning of the word 'till' or 'until', meant an action did not occur up to a certain point. It does not imply the action did occur later.
2Sam 6:23, "...the daughter of Saul had no child 'until' the day of her death." Did she have a child after she died?
The natural order of things is that Michal would not have children after her death, but that she would before. Death is the natural dividing line, so Samuel is here saying that Michal never had children (before her death, an unnatural order of things, or after her death, a natural order).
The "until" signifies the end of the unnatural order and the beginning of the natural order. "Until" is then a meaningful line of division.
In the case of Joseph and Mary, however, the dividing line separates the orders in a wholly different place. It is natural that married couples would have relations. The unnatural order of things is that they did not. Did not, that is, "until she brought forth her firstborn", which is also a dividing line, but only if afterwards she did not remain a virgin. If even afterwards Joseph did not know her, then the phrase "until" becomes meaningless, a dividing line which divides nothing. But if he did, then the "until" signifies the point at which the unnatural order ended and the natural order began, which makes it a good parallel of 2Sam 6:23.
Also, if you review the bible you will notice that the unnatural order is explicitly mentioned and the natural order of things is assumed. Mary remaining ever virgin is an unnatural order and should therefore be explicity mentioned, which it is not.
No offense to Catholics, but I don't get the Mary thing.
Oh, come on now. What do you call kneeling in prayer before a stone image and sacrificing substance to it? Veneration?
I'd be happy for you to pray for me; I need all I can get. Just don't pray to Mary; pray to God. Mary was just a tool, as are we all.
Wow. The modern Druids used the same line almost word for word! Coincedence?
So why argue with those who feel mary was just a vessel? Do they not have the right to see her as just a uterous doing the labor for God? I've seen no proof she's anything but a vessel. This whole post has nothing to prove otherwise. She was just hanging out after Jesuses birth. A follower like everyone else. That's all the Bible says about her.
I still have no idea where you folks come up with all this stuff.
I can say the same thing about your commentary. Like, this for example: "Wow. The modern Druids used the same line almost word for word! Coincedence?"
Wow, a religious conspiracy theorist. That's a new one (sarcasm on). Seriously, live and let live. Above all, pray for each other (as for all of your neighbors).
Wrong! you are forgetting Goegan(ph) in Boston.
But it IS exactly what they say. That wasn't a joke. They pray to birds instead of female statues. It was on the Sean Hannity show.
Well, there's one down. Who's next?
It ain't true.
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