[What's the biggest problem? Population collapse or cultural collapse?] Geert Wilders and Elon Musk exchange views about population collapse.

Twitter | January 2023 | wilders, Musk

[Responsibility2nd]

I would argue the population collapse in many countries is DIRECTLY related to their cultural collapse.

You get the morals, social values and cultures right....

Everything will follow.

[ansel12]

America had enough people in 1970 and could do just fine with its own population and its own natural growth/stability rate.

It was immigration that destroyed us and we have not seen anything yet as there is no intention to end it, which probably isn’t even possible with this last 100 million new voters.

[escapefromboston]

With a better culture you wouldn’t have to worry about a population collapse.

[ClearCase_guy]

I do understand that having a “top heavy” population is hard. If you have a lot of old people (who need benefits and support but who may no longer be actively contributing labor) and if you have a much smaller number of young productive workers (paying taxes so that others can receive benefits), that’s difficult.

But I believe a society can manage that sort of demographic shift. With proper expectations and value shifts, a pretty fair deal could be made available to the young and the old. And the problem is transient. In thirty years, things will be different.

My much shorter answer: I am not convinced that a declining population (which is the same as an aging population) is such an awful problem.

But I do think that a cultural collapse is something that can literally take centuries to recover from. America is particular is a unique phenomenon. Our culture was built on individual freedom and responsibility and limited government. That’s special. If we lose that (and we probably have) the world will not see it return for perhaps 1000 years.

[Aevery_Freeman]

And I remember how excited, as young people, that the birth control pill was widely available.

Now, not so much.

[Tell It Right]

It's both. The developed world isn't making babies. Worse still, the western portion of the developed world is "educating" itself away from honoring the values it has that makes life better.

Meanwhile, the undeveloped world is making the most babies to outnumber the developed world. And they don't seem to hold dear to core values we embraced in eras like our First Great Awakening and Second Great Awakening.

[aspasia]

Could be. African increase in population directly related to their cultural what?

[montag813]

Population collapse in the Arab world in Africa is essential to the survival of mankind

[aspasia]

Population control is evil.

[Taxman]

ping

[dforest]

Geert knows his stuff. He knows the facts because he has been at it for a long time.

In this case, both guys are right.

We need far fewer migrants and we need far more births of western nation’s natural people.

[Gnome1949]

You can easily argue couples in the West, not wanting to bring children into this screwed up world, are behaving rationally. We may see a population collapse of sane societies but hordes of violent barbarians are populating like crazy.

Third world trash apparently don’t give much thought to the future of their children in a world in chaos.

[Campion]

"Remember, what people do with their pelvic organs behind closed doors is nobody else's business!"

(The above is what we technically call "A lie that is fatal to civilization in the long term.")

[montag813]

Yes it’s evil, but so is providing hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to the Muslim world in Africa.

[EnderWiggin1970]

I disagree. It was not immigrants (illegal or not) who showed up preaching the dogmas of marxism, secular humanism, materialism and so on, that have led to the culture of self-extermination. While they may have traded ideas across borders, the self-destruction has been led from within.

I suggest people stop worrying (much) about poor Salvadorans and Venezuelans showing up at the border, and spend a lot more time dealing with the malevolence that is bred here within the borders. That's a 100X worse in the long run.

[x]

Well, yes, but the immigration problem is something we could deal with and did deal with during Trump’s term. Long-term cultural decline is a lot harder to fix.

[ansel12]

Wow, that displays incredible ignorance of the effects of immigration on America.

Take one example, California, do you think the white Californians suddenly reversed their politics and that is how we lost California?

What do you think the left means when they say Texas is falling and will fall? do you think that is because they are going to change the minds of the Texans that are there today?

[Responsibility2nd]

I used to have this as my tagline:

What you do behind closed doors is my business.

I would explain (if necessary) that the actions of degenerate people can and do influence the actions and the direction of a society.

As we know, we see the actions done behind closed doors have taken that slippery slope to actions in public.

John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Morality and virtue are the foundation of our republic and necessary for a society to be free.

Is it any wonder what was done, tolerated and accepted behind closed doors is now legally enforced and required of us citizens to obey? Is it any wonder that whatever freedoms we had are diminishing rapidly?

[The Mayor]

Cultural collapse has caused population collapse IMHO
Who wants to have kids in the shit condition of our country?
I had 6 kids and so far 7 grands. We pray for all of them daily