Posted on 01/18/2011 7:47:58 PM PST by redk
Cameras rolled as suspect Jared Loughner allegedly fired all 31 bullets in the clip of his Glock, plus another round that was already in the chamber, at a supermarket in Tucson, Ariz., on Jan. 8.
At the outset of the melee, unidentified sources who have seen the video tell the Washington Post, Loughner walked straight up to congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and shot her above the left eye from about two or three feet away.
Within moments, Loughner also allegedly shot Chief Arizona U.S. District Judge John Roll, who had tried to take cover under a table. As Roll did so, initial reports in the Post indicated he sought to protect the congresswoman's aide, Ron Barber, pushing Barber to the ground and getting on top of him, the newspaper reports. A later version of the article backs off that claim and notes that both Roll and Barber sought cover in the same area.
Barber has now been released from the hospital, KVOA reported last week. And Giffords is doing remarkably well, under the circumstances, reportedly recognizing her husband and friends and responding to them.
Roll died at the scene. An autopsy shows that the shot "took out his aorta," a source tells the Post
(Excerpt) Read more at abajournal.com ...
Ya, we've all seen a good example of "law enforcement" professionalism with Pima County Sheriff Dupnick. Do you even know who is in charge of the investigation? No doubt someone hand picked by that paragon of professionalism, Eric Holder.
Gimme a break.
Me too. I now despise the left and its propaganda arm more than ever.
I think you're being to generous to them. IMO, they're not lazy; they're complicit.
Cameras rolled as suspect Jared Loughner allegedly fired all 31 bullets in the clip of his Glock, plus another round that was already in the chamber, at a supermarket in Tucson, Ariz., on Jan. 8.
Ditz Reporterette ALERT!
Trash written by one: Martha Neil.
Do not expect any firearm facts to be correct. Her knowledge of guns equals that of hand milking a goat.
...who will proceed to tell us Loughner repeatedly screamed, "Sarah Palin, my life for you!!" while mowing down his targets.
Would you say the same about the LAS VEGAS COSTCO shooting of Erik Scott ?
Where can I start? Occam’s Razor?
The overwhelming proof, from multiple sources, that the killer was a loony paranoid schizophrenic, applied logically in your thinking, makes you conclude that -— there was a nefarious plot, and one where - in some manner you can’t even begin to explain — the media is IN ON the plot!!! Every one of them. They collectively got the instruction from the ringmasters to ignore Judge Roll’s death, and they’re following it.
I repeat, now to both of you — you’re insane.
The lawyers I know charge $200-450 per hour, in a rinky-dink place like Pittsburgh, for low-profile cases.
I’m clueless about guns but learning fast. lol. And very appreciative of anybody patient enough to school me on it.
When you say a “pistol cartridge” does that include what Loughner used? Would 90% of those hit by what Loughner shot survive if the placement of the bullet didn’t bleed them out too fast, like when the aorta is hit?
I looked at some of your posting history to understand where you’re coming from and it looks like both guns and gun injuries are your area of expertise, so I’m thankful for any input you can give.
Combat physicians (I know one well enough to offer this) will tell you that bladder shot folks do not run because the pain is so excruciating, even with a .22 lr cartridge. And that shock is the number one killer for pistol shootings.
Most, the very most of journalists today are bleeding heart liberal scum who have liberal readership. It is likely that the scum writing the articles/copy think their readership would take the word magazine to mean a page constructed, full of words and pictures object that somehow holds ‘bullets’. Cut the fools some slack.
;-) jk
I just observe, and what I observe is that there are major discrepancies in this story and its reporting. And there’s been probable disinformation from AZ lawmaker Linda Lopez, Napolitano’s DHS, White House operatives, fake Facebook pages, and Sheriff Dupnik (further quoted by Obama). That’s based on the discrepancies in the reports - including discrepancies involving why and how Judge Roll came to be at the event, which is critical to the issue of whether the FBI can even investigate that death.
I’ll respond to your accusation that I’m crazy in another post, but in this one I want to give some of the discrepancies that first led me to believe that the story we’re getting isn’t necessarily even internally consistent. Try answering these questions and you will understand that I’m not building conspiracies out of thin air but basing my thoughts on an analysis of the discrepancies I’ve observed:
1. Where did Jared Loughner live - with his parents, or on his own?
2. How many bullets did he fire? 30, 31, 33?
3. Did his gun jam or not?
4. Were the people in line sitting on chairs, or standing?
5. Who subscribed Giffords to Loughner’s videos?
6. Who found the envelope saying “I planned ahead”, “assassination”, and “Giffords”, when, and where?
7. Who found the letter from Giffords, when, and where? Did it have “Die Bitch” written on it, or not?
8. Was Jared associated with American Renaissance or not?
9. Is American Renaissance anti-Jew or not?
10. Did Judge Roll drop by on his way home from Mass as Sheriff Dupnik said, or did he leave from home at 9:55am as his aide said?
11. Did Judge Roll call his wife on his way home from Mass to say he would drop in in Giffords?
12. Is Roll’s church “just around the corner”, as Sheriff Dupnik said, or is it closer to the University as indicated on Google Maps?
13. Was Judge Roll’s decision to attend the event spontaneous as Sheriff Dupnik said, or was it planned ahead for business purposes as the FBI Agent’s affidavit says?
14. On what evidence did the FBI agent base his claims about Judge Roll’s plans? What was his source? Why did he file an affidavit without stating how he had personal knowledge?
15. WAs Giffords shot in the temple, the back, or the front? How long did it take for the story to change, and on what basis was it changed?
16. Did Loughner visit a Walgreens next to the Safewy during the night, or one closer to his own home?
17. Did Dupnik major in psychology? Did he believe that Loughner was mentally ill - either now or in the years before now?
18. On what was the suspicion of an accomplice based? Just the cab driver running away, or something more? If lots of people were running away, why was the cab driver’s running away suspicious?
19. Where did Jared Loughner get the ability to post mind control video?
20. Schizophrenics are not usually violent. Why did Jared do so much target practice?
21. Why did Jared want his change back from the cab driver after posting a farewell video the night before?
22. Why would he write a note saying “I planned ahead...assassination...Giffords” if he planned to kill Giffords, which would make it obvious? If he planned specifically an assassination and his own suicide, why did neither he nor his “target” die but Judge Roll had a bullet to his aorta?
23. How many schizophrenics plan a crazy venture, as opposed to being driven against their will by the illness? Was this a premeditated attack, or a schizophrenic bout?
I’ve got several irons in the fire right now, but I intend to respond to your suggestions that I’m crazy in another post to you. I don’t even pretend to be an expert on guns, schizophrenia, or mind control, although I’ll touch on those things in the next post. What caught my attention in all this is the discrepancies that nobody seems to care too much about. It’s a lot easier to just go with the flow. You don’t get called crazy if you go with the flow. But I do place a lot of importance on facts, and I haven’t figured out how to reconcile these conflicting “factual” claims.
I’ve also had an FBI worker lie to me for political reasons so that suggests that the integrity of their investigations can easily be compromised - especially when they are under the headship of the same Eric Holder whose DOJ for political reasons and at his direction won’t investigate minority individuals who commit crimes.
Now. About being crazy because I believe there is a possibility that Judge Roll was the real target...
You seem to think that I must be delusional if I think that mind control can happen. There were 2 people at that event who believed in the power of mind control - Jared Loughner, and James Eric Fuller. Both act like crazy people, but then the way that mind control can be done in plain sight without people seeing it is because it looks very much like insanity, from what I’ve read.
And for some sources which say what kinds of mind control exist and the evidence for it, you can look at http://www.stateside.com/FactPad/2011-Bill-Introduction-Deadlines-FactPad-Insert%20(3).pdf . I haven’t checked over all the sources so I don’t vouch for them, but if the quotes are accurate from the sources then there’s much more to be learned on this subject. To dismiss it out-of-hand because it sounds crazy wouldn’t be intellectually honest. It WOULD be what the practitioners of mind control would want you to think though..... lol.
From the accounts regarding Loughner, he was definitely confused. That looks to us like schizophrenia. I’ve done some reading on schizophrenia. Just going by what I’ve read, somebody who plans a violent rampage doesn’t sound like a schizophrenic, unless mind-altering drugs are involved - which can make a schizophrenic turn violent.
Jared Loughner did use drugs, if the accounts of him are correct. Marijuana and meth, IIRC. I don’t know if he was still using them when he planned his attack, or if using them before could still impact him now. Interesting that the thing that may have sparked his violence is not political rhetoric, but the same thing that California has just made legal and other states are wanting to do the same: marijuana. The same thing that the Mexican president is urging the US to make legal.
Now THAT’s crazy. When is the media going to touch that issue? lol. They won’t. It doesn’t fit the template, and they don’t care whether marijuana can turn schizophrenics into crazed mass murderers. Just like they’ve never cared if porn could turn the statistically-few psychologically-vulnerable people into serial rapist/killers.
They need to do an investigation of what was going on with Jared Loughner. And with James Eric Fuller. I’m not the expert who can unravel this. And the people who are experts should not be writing off any possibility except on the basis of the evidence. The fact that there are so many discrepancies or holes in the official story line we’re getting doesn’t inspire confidence in me.
That’s not because I’m crazy, but because I have an epistemology mostly based on factual evidence. When the story doesn’t add up it makes me wonder what the truth is.
***I think we can drop the silly alleged when the smoking gun is in the perp’s hand on tape.***
About 35 years ago MAD Magazine had a cartoon about this. It showed news report of a policician being shot, the gun in the shooter’s hand blasting bullets through the politician, and evil grinning gunman doing the shooting...and a cartoon lable pointing to the gunman with the words....”Alleged shooter”.
Mad Magazine has more common sense than journalists.
Pistol cartridges can, more or less, be grouped by “power”. Based upon my experience and reading it takes a bullet of about 115 grains traveling at over 1250 FPS to reliably make a person set down and quit what they are doing if shot around the sternum, the big bony plate your ribs are attached. If you hit around there then the impact will compress you chest and “knock the breath” out of you. The Arizona folks were shot with a 9mm, the same as used by our troops and has been used in most European countries for about 112 years.
Death can be defined as either the lack of blood flow to the brain or the destruction of the brain stem, which controls breathing and heart beat. A relatively high velocity, expanding bullet will cause the blood in the aorta, the main large muscular artery coming out of the heart to send a high pressure wave, a hydraulic effect, up the vessel to the brain where it acts like a “water hammer” and slams the brain. Same thing for the superior vena cava only the pressure is going in the reverse direction.
A low velocity and/or non-expanding bullet will not create this pressure wave so the the time to collapse will depend on the rate of bleeding - so if nothing important is hit the person can keep going indefinitely. Hence the importance of a sucking chest wound. In order for the heart, a “push -pull” pump, to work the diaphragm has to drop and create a negative pressure which will pull the blood in to chest/lungs. Without this pull the heart will be pushing against a pressure gradient and not move any blood, the blood has to be “pulled” through the capillaries.
So a sucking chest wound will collapse the lungs and the lack of blood flow will result in rapid unconsciousness.
I had a discussion today about the various reports regarding Gifford. As best I can tell, on very scant reporting, she was shot above the left eye and I suspect the bullet traveled through the left frontal lobe, then went through the ventricle (latin for belly), which is a fluid filled bag with a shock absorbing membrane, sort of like a baffle, separating the 2 hemispheres and covering about 1/3 rd of the length the bullet traveled. The bullet then went out the left occipital area. But I do not know if this is correct. I am sure the neurosurgeons put her in a barbiturate coma until her swelling went down or she would have been talking earlier but she would have been agitated and disoriented so they are taking it slow.
The brain is quite fibrous and if a round nose FMJ was the projectile it may have pushed and parted the tissue apart as opposed to cutting, stretching and splitting the white matter pathways (closed, pressurized container = minimal temporary cavity). If no bleeders were hit and the new holes in her skull prevented damage from swelling, then she has a good chance of recovering with minimal deficits. Mainly problems with impulse control, word finding difficulty, problems with 3-D constructs, and color naming. IF the bullet took that path AND it was not a hollow point. I suspect a +P+ Gold Dot hollow point bullet or .357 RM power level would have caused her head to explode. Either way, it definitely caused her to stop what she was doing (which was talking and spending my money).
I am not surprised she survived but I am surprised at the 33% death rate amongst the bystanders. Apparently Judge Roll took it through the aorta and I surmised the little girl may have been a head shot. Others were multiple hits.
Thanks to Goldsborough and a co-worker I spoke with this morning I actually understood what you just posted about bullets! =)
Fascinating information about what actually causes a bullet to be lethal.
The description you give for Giffords’ potential injuries sounds just like my brain function right now. I always thought it was either my kids driving me to distraction, my brain being too full of other stuff, or else just getting old. I’m so old I can’t even remember I’m 45. lol. Maybe the growth on my pituitary is doing more than we think it is.
Surprised at the 33% death rate among the others who were hit, because that’s more deadly than you would have expected, or less deadly? The placement of the bullet would have been the critical factor, right? Most of the hits were to the leg areas, even though he was in very close range on all of them.
Mary Reed, who pushed her daughter against the wall and covered her with her body to protect her, was shot 3 times - once in the back and once in each arm - and was fine. She was a non-moving target at close range. He hit her 3 times and she was fine. I’m very thankful that she was fine; what a beautiful picture of love her sacrifice was. But it surprised me that he didn’t kill her even with 3 tries. Is that what either of you would expect, TxDas and Goldsborough?
If even 10% of the things I’ve read about possible mind-control are ANYWHERE near accurate, and I’ve NOT read a lot on it, then it is an EXTREMELY scary world we live in.
On a tangential note:
It seems to me that making someone hear voices would be a relatively easy thing to do: using [perhaps] ultrasonics [or ‘seeming’ background noise] and a variant of noise-canceling headphone tech. (The harder part would be, I think, realtime tracking/updating things in a 3D space to keep things uninterrupted, but then again it *IS* a linear-system which computers excel at.)
If you’ve ever heard a guitar being tuned then you should be familiar with the odd “beat” noise that comes when the strings are not in-tune; this is because the waves “stack” on each other and partially reinforce the sound or partially deaden it depending on where the two are in their periods. And having a sound “coming” from a place other than it is generated can be easily illustrated in one of those elliptic “whisper chambers.”
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