Fake Obama Kenya birth certificate?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18018714/Fake-Obama-Kenya-birth-certificate ^ | 08/02/2009

[Jim Robinson]

And then one of our moderators spotted this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18018714/Fake-Obama-Kenya-birth-certificate

It has several clues, but also there's this question:

Who is E. F. Lavender?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=earth+friendly+lavender&aq=f&oq=&aqi

Earth Friendly Lavender detergent?

[SeattleBruce]

I think FR is loosing credibility by foaming at the mouth everytime some moron post a copy of a copy of a photo of a copy of the REAL PROOF.
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Obama himself is to blame for any and all wild goose chases...as someone else pointed out, this all adds to the birthers primary question - why won’t Obama provide the same basic proof that all of us need to in order to receive responsible employment across all industries?

Even Andrew Sullivan [Sullivan, the former deputy editor and associate editor of The New Republic, has written for the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Daily Telegraph, the New York Times Magazine, Time Magazine, Sunday Times of London and Esquire. He was named editor of the year by Adweek magazine in 1996.]
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105773

and columnists at HuffPo are asking him to show the BC:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-joseph/the-only-thing-weirder-th_b_248227.html

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105826
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I know you’re talking specifically about the alleged Kenyan BC, but in general, I wouldn’t put the mouth foaming *blame* on FR, becuase it just isn’t our fault.

[SaraJohnson]

“Historically, this is one type of issue that often results in millions of deaths.

On the bright side, for the next few centuries, playwrights will earn their supper telling their version of the story.”

And we know how this “history telling” will work out:

“Stupid red neck conservative racists went after the messiah and killed ‘em for no reason!” Just like the Clinton impeachment was “all about sex” and nothing about perjury.

That is unless we end up hanging some traitors and scare the hell out of the socialist global elite wannabes. They respond to fear; check out how they deal with Muslims. :) We need to go Muzzi on them. I am more than ready!

[PowerPro]

What if it’s not a matter of not asking for that information as much as deciding it’s not necessary to include all of those details on certificate of birth form?

For instance, I would imagine the name of the doctor would probably be recorded in their record books, but it’s not included on the forms. Perhaps, likewise, certain details were deemed over time to not be as necessary for the certificate of birth form even though of course that information could be accessed by going to the original source.

BTW...I’m still very agnostic on this whole issue here...I’m just throwing out questions and thoughts as they come about and believe that we should all take a kind of wait and see attitude regarding the authenticity of what’s been posted.

[SaraJohnson]

Amen! Just one!

[Mount Athos]

It won’t change Mount Athos’ opinion which was determined from the onset

If you go through the main thread, you'll see I had an open mind from the start.

I believe I was the first freeper who pointed out the close proximity of the divorce to the document issuance, lending credence to the document.

Having an official document header and seal marked "republic of kenya" 10 months before Kenya became one is a big reason to be skeptical of the document. It doesn't mean the document is false, it means there was good reason to doubt it.

To counter this skepticism, people have posted several false pieces of information that I have repeatedly debunked. Just because I debunk clearly false information, doesn't mean I have a closed mind. It means I want the discussion to founded on valid facts. I'm open to the possibility that the document is real. It doesn't advance the discussion to support an idea based on false facts.

False bits of information repeatedly injected into the discussion include:

That the 1963 constitution called Kenya a republic (it didn't, and it wasn't a republic, the constitution made the queen of england the head of state!)

That stamps were issued in 1964 or before that have the word republic on it, indicating kenya called itself a republic before it became one. NO stamps have the word republic on it before 1964, and it turns out the 5 1964 stamps that DO have the word republic on it were issued exactly on Dec 12th 1964, when it did become a republic.

That newspaper clippings indicate the country called itself "republic of kenya". So far the only newspapers cited are the "Nevada Palladium Times" and an obscure upcountry New York paper, hardly an authoritative source on what the world called Kenya at the time. The big papers didn't call Kenya a republic until it became one... There's a citation of a famous London paper quoting opposition leaders as saying they wanted to form a republic, and now we have a couple freepers falsely claiming this paper called kenya the "Republic of Kenya" back in 1963 before independence. The phrase isn't in the article.

That the WND article showed images of two documents, showing that documents at the time had the exact same characteristics. The WND article actually shows two images of the same document. It doesn't show any images of the documents they say they used for comparison. It doesn't say if the comparison documents were before or after dec 12 1964. I hope they do post this information and images.

It turns out that "coastal province" where Obama was born, was not in the territorial bounds of Kenya at the time. It was a "protectorate of Kenya", and may have called itself "Republic of Kenya". It's 10 miles of territory that Kenya leased from Zanzibar. Confusing eh?

This would explain why the documents have header and seal labled REPUBLIC OF KENYA, even though the main country of kenya didn't consider itself a republic and didn't refer to itself this way when the document was issued. BP's finding give a big boost to the chance the document could be real.

Does it sound like I have an open mind now?

[Danae]

Bink bink

[Gandalf_The_Gray]

According to the document, it’s the name of the person who signed at the bottom right.

Not so, Lavender is the "Register", Simon is his "Deputy" and signed the copy. If there is any truth to this Lavender would have signed the original "Long Form Birth Certificate".

Regards,
GtG

[piytar]

do you know what the 102181 was supposed to be w/r/t the doc itself? Not that it supposedly = obama, which it doesn’t, but where it is on the document or how it is related to the document? I can’t find it anywhere on the doc...

[Houghton M.]

I DID NOT say that the Times of London called Kenya a republic. Please do not misquote me while claiming to correct me.

[SeattleBruce]

It doesn’t matter really, because BP found that a seperate territory of Kenya outside of Kenyan territorial bounds (coastal province, leased from zanzibar?) considered itself a republic before the country did, and that’s the one in question for this document. Confused yet?
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The Taitz image says “Coastal Province, Republic of Kenya”. So it’s not just that that province considered itself a republic, but for the document to be real, there needed to be something officially identifying itself as the ‘Republic of Kenya.’ Are you saying that province referred to itself as the ‘Republic of Kenya?’

[DinkyJackson]

Wrong.
J=10

[FreeReign]

...Would make for a great distraction while Obama destroys the country

Even if this document is fake, Obama is taking the heat for not being forthright.

Obama taking the heat? I've seen one poll that says only 26% of the country thinks that we need to see the real BC. That leaves 74% of the country that is susceptible to the distracting Drive-By propaganda that Obama is being attacked by a bunch of "nuts".

Perhaps you have evidence that supports the claim that Obama is "taking the heat" from a significant percent of the voters for not being forthright. What is it?

[Mount Athos]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2306755/posts?page=788#788

"I DID NOT say that the Times of London called Kenya a republic. "

Here is your exact quote.

"A newspaper article from the Times of London, Oct. 9, 1963, using the term Republic of Kenya.

The article did not use the term Republic of Kenya.
Your misrepresented what the article said.

You create the false impression that the leading newspapers of the day were habitually calling kenya the "Republic of kenya". Instead of characterizing the article accurately, you chose to mislead.

You could have accurately said the paper was quoting opposition leaders as saying they wanted to form a republic. (Which they didn't, they passed a constitution that kept the Queen of England as the head of state, and they didn't create a president).

[SeattleBruce]

“Obama’s fathers was not a U. S. citizen, therefore Barack Obama II cannot be a natural born U. S. citizen. It doesn’t really matter where the birth took place.”

That’s the camp I fall into. Everything else is just useless noise.
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Except that ‘natural-born citizen’ SCOTUS precedent does seem to take the location of birth into consideration. I agree that the father’s citizenship is important, as would be the fact that BO was born in Kenya. It was certainly important to McCain as well, where he was born. I’m not sure which would have been more important in McCain’s case, but the non-binding Senate resolution ‘declared’ he was a ‘natural-born citizen’ and that seemed to be enough at the time.

I think the SCOTUS needs to address this. While I don’t normally cite wikipedia - here are the cases and such that govern this, to date, and they are instructive to a point - and the sources may be good references also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen

imho, the SCOTUS has not made a definitive statement about this, perhaps because it’s never come up in quite this way.

[nufsed]

The larger goal is to get him to open ALL of his records. So far it is alledged that much of his life, as he reported it, is a lie. So let’s see what’s there and let the chips fall where they may.

[Mount Athos]

Are you saying that province referred to itself as the ‘Republic of Kenya?’

Rather than risk misrepresenting BP's conclusions even slightly, I think it's better for you to read what he says directly instead of relying on my summary.

[Genoa]

I read elsewhere that Taitz has given the original (of what was photographed) to the U.S. District Court.

[SaraJohnson]

Me neither. Let me know if you figure out the after birthers’ number code case here. Me too, you!

[FreeAlaska32]

Therefore his two daughters are also not citizens, because only one their parents is a US Citizen.

[RummyChick]

Not my point. I see people get carried away on this site with a piece of information and not check dates, laws, etc......and I wanted to make sure people understood that reference was from 1865