Freeper help: The Certificate

self | 7/29/09 | LS

[LS]

Freepers: in preparing for radio shows and appearances, I need some information. Yes, it's here (someplace) on FR, usually buried in a myriad of links. So I'm asking your help to get some concise and clear answers on some "birther" issues:

1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?" If so, what are the specific differences, and can a non-U.S. citizen obtain either or both?

2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?

3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?

4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).

5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)

[sometime lurker]

Once again, I must ask for evidence. I don’t regard Berg as reliable. He’s strange on many things; he’s a “9/11 truther” who called for the arrest of President Bush and Vice President Cheney. I’d want to see the evidence he relied on to make this claim.

As I posted to someone else, I’ve read the transcript and listened to the audio of the interview with Obama’s paternal stepgrandmother, and it’s not at all clear. She answers one way, than shortly answers the opposite way, and sticks to it. Hard to call it definitive from an 80+ year old woman.

I haven’t seen the half-brother or half-sister’s claim, and I’d like to - do you have a link or citation?

[RummyChick]

No, I am tired of writing about it and seeing people ignore this over and over again.

You have been made aware of the issue. Chances are..you are going to continue with the misleading info anyway.

[jonrick46]

"could only transfer citizenship if she had lived in the US for 5 years after she was 16 years old."

Was it 5 years after she was 16 years or 14 years as is stated in post #15. I also see post 32 that says it is 16 years. This is getting confusing.

[MamaTexan]

Their marriage status IS RELEVANT IF HE WAS BORN IN KENYA.

From your link:

(a) A child born abroad and out of wedlock acquires at birth the nationality status of a citizen mother who meets a specified residency requirement.

Not the same at all, as this case was about a foreign birth to a foreign mother. As other posters have pointed out, Zero's mother DID NOT meet the 'specified residency requirement' in 1961.

Therefore, Zeros citizenship defaults to that of his father if he was born in Kenya.

And no, I'm not clueless, and I really don't appreciate the insulting tone.

At least I can differentiate between native born and natural born. Can you?

[Polarik]

The info is all here for anyone to find. Post the link to the long thread.

[RummyChick]

Evidently, you don’t know how to read a SCOTUS decision

try again...unwed mother..ONE YEAR RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2071.ZO.html

The whole point of the case is that the law is different for an unwed father than an unwed mother AND THEY DISCUSS BOTH.

They are discussing and explaining the law.

Evidently, you don’t get that so try again.

[sometime lurker]

The ambassador later said he was talking about Obama Sr., so he didn’t stand by this. I’d like to read about what other paternal relatives said, maybe it’s more definitive. Do you have a link?

[RummyChick]

For those of you that have a hard time understanding what you read in a SCOTUS case..here is a synopsis of the citizenship requirement for unwed mothers.

http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/natzcitzshp/nc033.htm

If you don’t believe it..then you will have to analyze and read the SCOTUS case.

[cynwoody]

First of all, how do you know he misrepresented the status to her. He may have..but where did you get that idea. If he did misrepresent the status to her..when did she find out?

She may never have found out. At least, if she did find out, it was after January, 1964, when she got what have been an unnecessary divorce.

read this and educate yourself.

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/nationalityinstructions/nisec2gensec/legitimacy?view=Binary

That's a big pile of mumbo-jumbo. Where's the part that says Zero needed to have been born in Kenya to have acquired his father's citizenship?

[RummyChick]

by the way,if you think Obama automatically gets his father’s citizenship then you best be reading the law about UK citzenship and VOID marriages.

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/nationalityinstructions/nisec2gensec/legitimacy?view=Binary

[sometime lurker]

“Soetoro-Ng, Obama’s half sister, who was born in Indonesia on August 15, 1970, also has a Hawaiian birth registration.

I looked at the article and it does not cite a source for the statement. I'd like to see a source that does not rely on Techdude's discredited work. I don't think it does us any good to claim something that's already been discredited unless we have evidence.

[RummyChick]

Well sheesh, if you cant read a document from the UK Border Agency about immigration that outlines the law and the various acts...then I can’t help you.

[spacejunkie2001]

Are you this rude to people in person as well, or just reserve it for the anonymity of the internet?

[jonrick46]

There was a letter from the University of Washington registrar stating Stanley Ann was a student in the fall of 1961. There was also a video of one of Stanley Ann's friends, Susan Blake, who lived on Mercer Island in the Summer of 1961. She talked about the visit by Stanley Ann and Baby Barack two weeks after the child was born.

Ask this question: why wasn't Stanley Ann and Baby Barack with the father in Hawaii? My theory is that Barack Sr failed to get his father's blessing for the marriage. To keep his son away from Stanley Ann and child, Barack Sr's daddy arraigned to have Sanley Ann and baby Barack relocate on the return flight to Seattle, Washington. With the cost of air travel, it makes sense. The flight, using a polar route was closer to Seattle, Washington from Kenya than Hawaii. Once Barack Sr left mother with child in Vancouver BC (which was served by British Airways), he went on to Hawaii to finish his degree with a Bachelors Degree in economics and mathematics in June, 1962.

Here is the classified add for Stanley Ann's Capital Hill apartment in Seattle:

[RummyChick]

Yes, people who refuse to look at the law when it doesn’t fit their agenda are not high on my list.

[RummyChick]

I really don’t know much about the father of Obama Sr. Is there information out there that says he frowned upon this marriage because I also read someone else say that.

one of the reasons may be that he knew it was an illegal marriage punishable by jail time and possibly being kicked out of the country. I dont know it it was punishable my jail time in Kenya but it was in the US. All I know is that you could not mix customary and statuory marriages in that country.

Sr had backers. It is not that much of a stretch to think he got pulled into a charade and was promised something in return.

I haven’t seen anything that would indicate that they had a real marital relationship...other than claims Ann fell in love with him.

If you believe the theory that he isn’t the father...then the idea of a charade becomes more believable.

[cynwoody]

by the way,if you think Obama automatically gets his father’s citizenship then you best be reading the law about UK citzenship and VOID marriages.

But Sr's marriage was valid in Kenya.

[RummyChick]

NO, the only marriage that was valid in Kenya is the one to Kezia. Ann would have had to have a customary marriage..and that was a reason for her to go to Kenya.

No mixing of customary and statutory marriages.

Kenya has a website where you can research the old marriage laws

[MamaTexan]

Unless you have proof he was born in Kenya, all your assertions are immaterial.

[RummyChick]

Well let’s see. You post the wrong information and then have a problem when I try to post the right information?

Oh brother...

How about people post the right information in case Lou Dobbs comes around looking for some of the issues in this complex case..by golly if you are going to post the statute that applies to married people then you best be posting the info that applies to unmarried people as their marriage was a VOID marriage. Oh hey, how about spending some of that energy on trying to find cases and immigration law that deal with VOID marriages in the US. I found it in the UK.

From me:
there is one way to get around this if you can find a law or case law that says Immigration would have considered their marriage legal for the purposes of immigration even though they couldn’t legally get married in Hawaii.

From you:

As long as Obama Sr is listed as the father, their marriage status is immaterial.

The governmental forms always specify father..... not mother’s husband.