Posted on 08/13/2008 6:42:34 AM PDT by shrinkermd
In America? lol! Yeah, it's either a college degree or a textile mill. Are you sure yer in the right party? The DEMs love that textile mill BS! There is opporunity ALL over America in countless jobs, a lot of them fun and rewarding. It's just too funny to see the college degree holders defending their egos on this thread. Too much fun. But I have to go do some work now. Self-employed, doing what I love, supporting myself, having a fabulous time in jeans and a tee shirt. Buhbye.
LOL. Again, anything to salve yer ego. I’m big enough. Hey, I remember you! You’re the aptly named one!
Isn't it funny how the math/science guys seem to have missed that? Maybe they're not so good at reading comprehension.
It does have a marvelous ring to it.
They skipped English classes.............
Me too! And math. And history. And gym.
Cornelis: "If you were Milton Friedman, we might be seeing this. I imagine some good schools could offer such a program. It could even begin in grades 11 and 12 for qualified students"
First, I dont quite get the Friedman reference. He was big on vouchers, and yes, it could be offered to 11th/12th grader as a 'super-college prep' course, like International Baccalaureate. All of these touch on a few related threads: 1) The dumbing down of K-12, where we teach less than we ought; 2) the hollowing out of the 'core' of western civ; 3) the fact that new technologies enable a different and better education, at lower cost; 4) the political and cultural system is out of whack, where parents and kids are encouraged to spend too much money and time to get less and less real learning.
The key to schooling as a limited resource that demands big bucks is credentialing. People get a Harvard degree because it imparts a credential. like a prestige thing, you have to pay mercedes prices to drive a mercedes car. But what if you could prove your brain had the knowledge and skills equivalent of a harvard grad? If you can create OpenTesting, an OpenSource version of credentialing, you can break the monopoly of schooling. Now if you can PROVE that they have learned, then you have levelled the playing field for learning.
There are ways to teach and get credentialled. One really effective ways to save money on college is to go the AP course route. Pass the AP test and you can place out of college courses and even get college credits.
What if that was extended to all College courses? There is a way. It's called CLEP.
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/about.html
"The College-Level Examination Program® (CLEP) gives you the opportunity to receive college credit for what you already know by earning qualifying scores on any of 34 examinations. Earn credit for knowledge you've acquired through independent study, prior course work, on-the-job training, professional development, cultural pursuits, or internships."
OpenCLEP would be an open standard for College-level credentialing.
Any institution should accept a CLEP-certified passage of a course, and offer students ability to transfer credits in and out. That alone would drastically lower the cost of education, as many kids could use AP and CLEP at nearby community college to pass lower courses.
I did all that and still got an engineering degree. Damned if I know how.
The degree holders have been stating facts. It is the one's like you that have been huffing and puffing to build up your ego.
We’re all Free Agents. I firmly believe that everyone has a natural skill set and is suitable to do something that they either like doing, or can at least stand to do for 8 hours or more a day.
However, if someone is willing to pay you to do something you love to do anyway, then you’re golden. :)
And as my Dad always says, “Some people are here simply to serve as horrible examples to others.” :)
Sometime in her early 20’s she really *looked* at her daughters and “woke up”.
She started at the local community college. The first challenge was to learn how to read.
Turns out she was severely dyslexic and a mathematical genius.
It took her 6 years, but she almost has her BS in biology and mathematics and is now getting married to a really sweet, stable guy. Her future is bright.
So there's something to be said for the local community college. They are equipped to save those who need it most.
We read you loud and clear and there is no qualifier in your position.
That's my advice for young people everywhere. Don't go to college.
So you were in the Army? What’s your point?
I spent 10 years in the Air Force which is why it took me 8 years to obtain a 4 year degree. Your argument is now less valid since you could have taken advantage of military tuition programs such as the G.I. Bill. Or could it be that you are just lazy and believe that everyone who goes to college must be of some privileged class who all graduate as corporate “yes” men?
What makes you think my ego is suffering. Apparently making personal attacks helps yours.
Great comments, WOSG. The AP is basically a kind of certification that Murray is recommending ("Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties.")
What is needed is for other venues to accept them. (" The problem is a shortage of tests that are nationally accepted, like the CPA exam.")
The Friedman reference was only to suggest that your idea could use a bullhorn. AP can be very rigorous. Unsurprisingly, there are many schools that prefer not to recognize AP. For financial reasons, no doubt. I highly recommend that high schools students take AP, especially in the humanities, if the school they are attending accepts them. The humanities in the American Universities are hopelessly lost, most of all English departments. What advantages do CLEP exams have over AP?
I couldn't agree more. I think there is a place for college, but it no longer is a measure of a young individual's potential in the world.
My 15 year old son has the highest IQ in the family. He's an honor roll student and an inventor. He's also dead-set against going to college. When he sees our family dr making less than my cousin who's a plumber, he thinks that college is a sucker's bet. He also believes that life behind a desk would be the worst kind of hell for him.
In our family we have successful mechanics, gun smiths, plumbers and military. We also have a dr, a nuclear physicist, and a few military men. Everyone owns their own houses, has more than one car, supported stay-at-home wives and successfully raised children.
I've told both my kids that *they* will define success for themselves. If he can support a family, save for retirement, stay off the public dole, and find contentment in his life, then he will be a successful man.
“. The AP is basically a kind of certification that Murray is recommending (”Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties.”)”
This book is a must-read then. He’s pegged the critical bottleneck. It’s the credentials and certification.
“I highly recommend that high schools students take AP, especially in the humanities, if the school they are attending accepts them.”
Absolutely. Of course political correctness is creeping into high schools, but it is not as bad. The main thing is the huge financial advantage for the advanced students, who can knock almost a year off of college if they take a full battery of AP courses: Physics, English, History, Language (French/spanish etc), Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry, European History.
With 5 or 6 AP courses, you can knock off freshman year practically.
“The humanities in the American Universities are hopelessly lost, most of all English departments. What advantages do CLEP exams have over AP?”
CLEP covers many more courses.
But the DISADVANTAGE is that many colleges wont accept CLEP certification. I was one who took advantage of AP courses and was able to get ahead based on it, by one year. With CLEP-based certification of the core, you could in effect replace the first 2 years of college.
... and you could probably do it via distance learning, ie, the rise of HOME SCHOOL College learning!
This is a ‘cartel’ thing, like OPEC. If you want a college credential, they will make you take courses. We can break the walls down in the community college levels first, by getting all community colleges to be CLEP-accepting.
I am sorry you are bringing up egos and personal points. I am not defending my ego, and in fact I am one bringing up ideas that could replace much of traditional college. Perhaps you are the one trying to defend a personal choice. Certainly different choices work for different people. I certainly dont regret going for a PhD, for example, but I wouldnt recommend it to most people.
You are simply saying things that are untrue. It is simply untrue that you can bust into most professional fields without a college degree, and I mentioned the many fields where this applies.
In my case, I was working minimum wage prior to degree, then got engineering job based on my BSEE and MS CS at age 21. There was no way I’d have gotten that salary or job at that age without the degree. It takes years of experience to build a track record enough to match the MS credential.
And for doctors, lawyers, PEs, and CPAs, the degree is vital to the professional degree credential.
Yes, you COULD manage to educate yourself and become self-made professional success. But do most 18 years olds have that wherewithal? Many don’t. Most 18 year olds need a bit more maturing to figure out what they want in life, and it doesnt hurt to have them learning all they can while they do it. The one exception is business. I will be telling my own kids to think about using $100,000 to start a business at 18 instead of going to college. But I don’t think they’ll take me up on the offer.
“Self-employed, doing what I love, supporting myself, having a fabulous time in jeans and a tee shirt.” That sounds great. But you can also be an engineer in high-tech and wear those outfits.
BTW, did you open a new grill? :-)
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