For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

Wall Street Journal ^ | 13 August 2008 | charles Murray

[shrinkermd]

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses

[ColdWater]

HuH?

[frankiep]

Are you serious?

Engineer
Doctor
Scientist
Architect
Accountant
Economist
Teacher

To name just a few.

Show me someone who does not have a college degree, but rather ‘study at home’ learning, and I will show you someone who has no business whatsoever in any of these professions.

[duckbutt]

Amen and Amen to your comment.

I was so fortunate to work for a company that offered tuition reimbursement. At the age of 30 I was widowed. I looked at my 6 year old daughter and wondered how I could ever put her through college on a secretary's salary —I could barely make the house payment and put food on the table.

So...I took advantage of the tuition reimbursement and worked full time and went to school part time. Took 9 years to get my BSBA in accounting. I cried when I wrote out DD’s first tuition check —it was the culmination of the goal I set out for myself.

Later joined another company with tuition reimbursement. Got a master's certificate in my field, plus later got an MBA. Not only did the company pay for it, I got two promotions as well.

So —if the company offers it, TAKE ADVANTAGE! They want an educated work force. They would rather risk having someone educated possibly leaving the company for greener pastures than an uneducated work force that stays.....

[moehoward]

LOL!!!
You sound like you make a living teaching.

Then again, if you did, your typo might not have made the post.

[WOSG]

I can’t think of a single job/career that can’t be mastered with some ‘study at home’ and a spell as an intern.

You bias is supported by your ignorance.

Actually, he is right. Now, in middle age, I see that most of what I learned in College might have been picked up just by reading textbooks and going into a job environment .... BUT ...

For 99% of students, the structure and the competitiveness of school itself seems to be required to motivate kids to learn.

[2nd amendment mama]

If the job requires a degree and you don't have one, you won't get past HR.

That's blatantly false.

[mysterio]

For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

Incorrect.

[cornelis]

If it’s a ticket, it might be worth the money, but that’s it. Certification would be a lot cheaper and better for society.

[ColdWater]

You sound like you make a living teaching.

No, nuclear engineer. BTW, your typo was OTT!

[DungeonMaster]

Surely you jest? I deduce from your screen name that you spent 4 years playing Dungeons and Dragons instead of pursuing a college education?

Or maybe I was in the Army.

[moehoward]

“Science and technical areas that require hands-on work in laboratories or workshops...”

I said with an internship.

You mention arts. I make my living in the arts. While I did have the opportunity to exercise my skill in college, very little, if any, of the curriculum applies in the real world.

[mysterio]

It's the education, not the certification. Being in an intense study program for four years when the brain is still finishing development is a workout for the mind. It's not what you learn, it's what happens in the brain. All of the studying makes the brain better able to process information. And if you continue to learn, you keep that ability to make connections.

On the surface, the "pragmatic" view is that many people don't need college. But when you look at it as building a mind, there are few who wouldn't benefit from continuing education.

[ColdWater]

I make my living in the arts.

Then what expertise do you claim in how engineers should be educated?

[cornelis]

If you were Milton Friedman, we might be seeing this. I imagine some good schools could offer such a program. It could even begin in grades 11 and 12 for qualified students.

[frankiep]

You’re absolutely right.

There are too many people nowadays who are educated. We don’t need anymore scientists, doctors, mathematicians, engineers, etc. anyway.

You didn’t go to college, so you recommend that all young people shouldn’t go either. Very nice.

Oh, and good luck explaining to those young people you advise why they are getting called for fewer job interviews and making less money when compared to their peers with degrees.

[moehoward]

“For 99% of students, the structure and the competitiveness of school itself seems to be required to motivate kids to learn.”

Agreed. If they can be motivated at all.

I also think that this motivation will be apparent in K-12. It wont magically appear in college.

Fact is. A trade school type application, along with internship, is all that is needed. Universities are the LONG way around.

[Atlas Sneezed]

If you earn a college degree it proves to potential employers that you can:
meet deadlines
work on multiple projects
engage in critical thinking
successfully reach long term goals
work effectively with others
coherently present facts from numerous different sources
properly prioritize assignments

---

No dispute. However, other are far faster, cheaper and more effective ways to achieve the same ends, at least as far as many employers should be concerned.

You don’t need to send me to the moon to develop personal computers and Teflon.

You don’t need to send kids to a party country club to have them learn the essentials to be a productive adult.

[Sloth]

When I was an econ major, I couldn't understand why I had to take four semesters of English courses, which included everything from composition to literature. The same was true for a course called "The Arts" (a study of art, architecture, sculpture, etc. from Roman times to the present) and "World Civilization". Now, I have an appreciation for things I never dreamed would matter 40 years ago. Several trips to Europe were significantly enhanced because of "The Arts", although I didn't appreciate it one bit while going through it. I've written a number of textbooks; a task made significantly easier because of those stupid English courses.

All of that is just peachy, but your pleasant experiences have no bearing on whether colleges ought to *require* such fluff courses. I had to take a few silly things while pursuing my chemical engineering degree, though I was able to avoid English classes altogether.

[cornelis]

I agree, in part.

Nobody is against education.

A BA, however doesn’t translate into education, for many students. It is a relic of the past, now diverted and bloated for other purposes.

As the old Seneca thought, quemadmodum omnium rerum, sic litterarum quoque intemperantia laboramus: non vitae sed scholae discimus.

[ColdWater]

I also think that this motivation will be apparent in K-12. It wont magically appear in college.

It won't magically appear, but it often happens.

Fact is. A trade school type application, along with internship, is all that is needed. Universities are the LONG way around.

Fact is. Trade schools do NOT provide the tools required for many professions.