Posted on 08/13/2008 6:42:34 AM PDT by shrinkermd
Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:
First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."
You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.
Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.
Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Yes, agreed, if high schools will do it. Even though in better days the liberal arts were treated in college, they've bungled it horribly. One thing to take into consideration is that the liberal arts require a maturity that sometimes just isn't there for high schools sophomores and juniors. If a liberal arts college isn't for everyone, neither is it for everyone by stuffing it into the high school years.
“The main reason to go to elite schools is to hang out with smart and elite people.”
every time Obama speaks off-teleprompter about historical events or foreign affairs, he proves that an Ivy League education is not worth the money.
If the job requires a degree and you don't have one, you won't get past HR.
You wouldn't be able to knock on the doors I was able to knock on once I got my degree: R&D in the energy industry. Without a degree, no one here would even entertain the idea of giving a non degreed person an interview. I use to work offshore in the Gulf of Mexico and it wasn't until I got a degree that I was able to knock on the doors of the energy industry's R&D departments.
A degree definitely allows a person to knock on a variety of doors that a non degreed person simply cannot knock on.
I tried that once in the medical field. And you know, that surgery stuff is a lot more difficult than they make it look on TV.
Incorrect.
We fail to teach citizenship, a prerequisite for keeping our society on the right keel.
This is deliberate action of the left on campus, who have hollowed out the college’s teaching of Western civ. Losing our memory and reverence for western civ corrupts us and opens us up to getting our values, culture and future replaced.
“I’m in favor of completing the necessary liberal arts education during ages 15-20 in one’s home town, before attending other institutions requiring the mandated courses.”
I have thought of this concept of a one-two year “Academy” that is post K-12 and which provides a rigorous post-K-12 education in the core, at a high level - key undergrad courses, in history, english, math, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc.
The utility of this approach is that it reintroduces the core and rigor to college, without displacing the college majors. The college failure to have core curriculum is repaired. College BAs and BS degrees could/should be 3 years of effort after this. Some kids (like me) used AP to get ahead of the freshman classes, this would supplement and go beyond that.
That’s all true. But that assumes you are going after one specific job. If your goal is broader than that, and you are considering a wide array of jobs, it is quite easy to find people willing to hire high school grads to college-level jobs. I wouldn’t own a house and my own business if it weren’t so. But certainly, some fields will require higher levels of education to advance. I’m just saying that a high school education is enough to get you into any number of good, white collar jobs if you are flexible and adaptable and willing to hustle.
He is correct. Try applying for a job requiring an engineering degree, math degree, computer science degree. You'll never make it to HR.
Yeah, yeah, and it's also hard to do nuke physics without college. And since those are the only two degrees offered in college, and since every job that "requires" a degree specifically requires med and nuke physics degrees, you win the argument!
Oh...wait..
That is why certification will need to become a requirement so that schools will adapt and change. It isn’t only the schools that are to blame.
My origianl statements was simply that a degree allows a person to knock on doors that would normally not be availabvle to them. That stands true as you just admitted.
No, he's incorrect, and so are you. His statement was all-encompassing:
"If the job requires a degree and you don't have one, you won't get past HR."
This is clearly false. There are many, many jobs that "require" a degree, and yet will hire a non-grad. I know, I did it several times.
Your statement is qualified. Had the other poster said this:
"Certain jobs, such as x, y, z, have college requirements that definitely are enforced."
I could agree with that statement. Some fields have regulatory requirements which would compel them to do so.
But of course, no one except the bitter badgers are even disputing the value of highly specialized technical degrees. We're talking about garden variety, four year liberal arts degrees.
For some reason, this gets under the skin of certain folks, who feel the need to throw in the same, basically off-topic, obvious, and tedious comments about doctors and scientists.
In certain specialized and/or highly regulated fields. My point, which is undebatable, is that there are numerous jobs where that isn't the case, and it's in people's interest to go for the job they want, even if they don't meet the education requirement.
I think it is because some posters set the tone of this thread early on and we don't want young readers to get the idea that college is worthless...
"This article is spot on. That's my advice for young people everywhere. Don't go to college. The problem with college is it further ingrains passivity. Nevermind that the education they receive is pretty useless."
“My experience is that law school is a piece of cake compared to engineering ... “
An engineers view.
The engineers could handle all the math and science but who wanted to make more money than math professors.
The doctors are the ones who’d make okay engineers but wanted to make more money than engineers.
The lawyers are the wannabe doctors who flunked out of organic chemistry (pre-med weedout course).
The journalists are the wannabe lawyers who did poorly on their LSATs.
The next gen K-12 teachers are the liberal arts majors who couldnt handle being journalists, or any serious major.
The MBAs partied too much in undergrad and had to figure out a way to pay for their future lifestyle.
The Professors are those kids who never wanted to venture into the ‘real world’.
“Why am I arguing?”
Because you contradicted yourself.
“In certain specialized and/or highly regulated fields. My point, which is undebatable, is that there are numerous jobs”
There are numerous jobs at a textile mill.
In most professional jobs, a college education, in fact, a *higher* degree, is preferred or required. Dont know of any CPAs, lawyers, CFOs, CIOs, Profesional Engineers, professors, teachers, doctors, etc. who are not.
Business jobs (salesman) and skilled labor (plumber) might be an exception.
“it’s in people’s interest to go for the job they want, even if they don’t meet the education requirement.”
To go for a job, you need to do what is required to get it, and that is get the credentials.
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