Beginning to sound like Scientologists what with all the security and legal beagels and such.
They at least need pretty designer uniforms. Maybe something by DaVinci?
Posted on 12/17/2007 1:20:45 PM PST by JOAT
Larry Bourbonnais, who was slightly wounded during last week's shootings at New Life Church, was ejected Sunday from the same church for alleged aggressive behavior.
"I took a bullet for members of this church," he was heard to shout as he was hustled out of the Colorado Springs worship complex by security guards.
The Rev. Brady Boyd said the church has petitioned for a restraining order against Bourbonnais, who tried to stop Matthew Murray's killing spree.
(Excerpt) Read more at rockymountainnews.com ...
I am not hammering you, but the church has a few tares in it, but Christ Himself said it would. This church has a tremendous impact on the local community, it is strong spiritually. Sure there are problems, but they are dealt with open and honestly when found out. I would strongly ask you to consider why would you worry about the size of a church if Christ knows the very number of hairs on your head? Cannot He govern His church thru the Holy Spirit? It seemed to work out well two weeks ago when one believer listened to the Spirit and obeyed and saved who knows how many lives. God is not worried about how big or how small, He can govern it just fine without men, He chooses to do it with men, warts and all.
Sorry about the length.
Yep.
This guy was out there trying to make himself a hero in front of the media, when everybody knew who the real hero was.
No way I’d give that idiot my gun.
If he wanted to shoot back, he shoulda brought a gun.
AMEN, CCW forever!
Ok then, riddle me this...
Jesus, the Son of God and the Savior of mankind, is recorded to have preached to the largest crowd in his lifetime of around 5000.
Yet a “nodenominational” minister/pastor with little more required than a 2 year associates degree in theology to hold that title is showing up and preaching to 10,000 a week and he’s going to save their souls?
Sorry, church is a family, there is no way, none the “shepherd” of this flock can remotely know the people in his “family”. None.
Up until the last few hundred years, the largest CITIES only had 50,000 people at most.... yet 10,000 a week is a family to you?
While a larger Church may have Million if not Billions of members, it does not have them all being lead by 1 priest or pastor who has no way to possibly know and connect with his flock. To believe that 1 minister can effectively preach and mentor 10,000 members in any sort of realistic way in theology is laughable. If this were a classroom or a college lecture everyone would laugh to think that this one professor or teacher could possibly reach this “class”.. but you think otherwise because the topic is God?
I highly doubt 1 in 1000 of these parishners could answer the simple questions theologists answered even before Christ was born. I have no doubt they feel uplifted after watching their weekly telethon, but there is no way they are expanding their spirituality.
Carolyn
Something is start feel very wrong about this church. So much angst.
Gay prostitutes, meth, shootings, and a restraining order. What could feel wrong?
(chuckle)
Amen....
Fine. If you are ever confronted by a shooter, run around like an idiot and swear at him. Have yourself a blast.
This is a very high profile church. It's one of the largest if not the largest congregations in the state. Haggard was very active in politics and national organizations. They have in the past received death threats.
Having to have security is just another sign of the times, I'm afraid.
I am sure there are many fine people in this church, and I have no doubt they do good in their community. I am not suggesting that everyone who attends there is Satan or ungodly, or even unchristian.
I also would not suggest that any church is perfect, none can be. All churches are run by man, and as well all know, man is an inherently flawed creature.
I also don’t believe that a “Church” in the grand sense cannot have Billions of members, however there is a limit to size where an idividual congregation can have and remain a “church” in the traditional sense.
Once any organization gets above a certain size, it cannot function with a personal connection, its impossible. A CEO of a 10,000 person corporation does a completely different job than the CEO of a 250 person or 750 person organization.... Churches are no different.
A Pastor cannot be a pastor in the traditional sense when they have no chance at all of knowing their flock. Its impossible. Sure they can show up on sunday and deliver a sermon, but that’s not the day to day job of a Minister or pastor. At 10,000 persons, this individual has to be acting more as a CEO than an pastor/minister/priest.
Anyone can show up and deliver a sermon to a large crowd occassionally, but weekly? This isn’t remotely the role of the traditional minister/pastor/priest. They cannot fill this role if the church is of this sort of size.. they cannot know that so and so husband of 50 years is struggling with alzheimers, and she and her children and grandchildren are having trouble coping with it.... they can’t know that John Z has started to fall in with the wrong crowd... etc etc etc.. Sure someone in the church might know this, but it won’t be the shepherd, and lets be honest, the training required for non Denominational pastor is pretty light to begin with, let alone dumping such responsibilities on the laypersons to cover completely....
Any organization functionally breaks down with the human connection when it gets larger than a few hundred, maybe 750 people tops. The degrees of seperation become too great.
Sure. Good preaching comes from the Holy Spirit not years of schooling. And it isn't the minister that saves the souls, it is God.
Sorry, church is a family, there is no way, none the “shepherd” of this flock can remotely know the people in his “family”.
And? No where in the bible does it say that a pastor has to personally know everyone in the church. You might PREFER a smaller church, but it is not biblical to say that is the only right way.
Up until the last few hundred years, the largest CITIES only had 50,000 people at most.... yet 10,000 a week is a family to you?
Sure. All Christians are my brothers and sisters - it isn't limited to the building I walk into which has been labeled a 'church'. My family has billions.
While a larger Church may have Million if not Billions of members, it does not have them all being lead by 1 priest or pastor who has no way to possibly know and connect with his flock.
Again, so what? That's not a biblical requirement. What is important is that we are known (and that we know) the one True Shepherd.
To believe that 1 minister can effectively preach and mentor 10,000 members in any sort of realistic way in theology is laughable.
Biblically speaking, it isn't the one given the gift of preaching that is responsible for mentoring everyone in the local fellowship. It is the responsibility of every mature Christian to mentor those who are not mature.
If this were a classroom or a college lecture everyone would laugh to think that this one professor or teacher could possibly reach this “class”.. but you think otherwise because the topic is God?
Make up your mind - are you concerned about the preaching or the teaching? These are two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit. A church of 10,000 generally has smaller groups for teaching, i.e. Sunday School and bible studies. But yes, if the 'class' was 10,000, it would be no problem for the Holy Spirit to reach each one of them. You err thinking this is up to man to accomplish.
I highly doubt 1 in 1000 of these parishners could answer the simple questions theologists answered even before Christ was born.
Possibly. You're going to find that in a small church too. It isn't the responsibility of the preacher to force people to grasp the truths of God. His responsibility is to preach. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to give wisdom and understanding, and of the individual to heed the teaching and guidance He provides.
I have no doubt they feel uplifted after watching their weekly telethon, but there is no way they are expanding their spirituality.
Since your stances on this issue (and others) are unbiblical, you clearly are not the best judge of who is or is not expanding their spirituality.
He was Not confronted by the shooter, he went towards the sound of danger.
If You choose to be predictable, that's okay.
You claim the pastor has no roll in educating and informing, that the sermon by your definition serves really no purpose... Preaching is educating and informing my friend, its not simply regurgitating words for the sake of hearing oneself speak.< p> Preaching is to advocate or inculcate (inculcate - to implant by repeated statement or admonition; teach persistently and earnestly )
A Preacher is there to teach and inform, not just repeat as nauseum, or deliver a sermon for no reason other than to hear their own voice.
A Pastor cannot lead a flock that he does not know. I find it amazing you claim that a man can do more than God incarnate.
You state:
What is important is that we are known (and that we know) the one True Shepherd.
Hmmm... so one who does not know you, and cannot know you because frankly the size of your "church" makes it impossible, is going to be able to aid you in better knowing the Lord? Wow... glad you cleared that up (rolling eyes).
You touch peoples hearts and minds by KNOWING them, no paster of a "flock" of 10,000 will know his charges, well other than those with the deepest pockets anyway.
You seem to think teaching and preaching are seperate, they are not. Yes all churches have more in depth study for those who desire it, but the very essence of preaching is teaching.. your denial of this seems to pretty much prove my point regarding megachurches in general.
You believe my stands unbiblical, I find yours borderline heretical. To believe that preaching is not at its essence teaching is to say that Jesus Christ himself was not a teacher. This flies in the face of all of the New Testament.
If you attend a mega church and the dog and pony show on sunday morning makes you feel good, good for you. However there is absolutely no way that preacher is performing his duties as put forth by the example Christ himself and the Apostles after him.
No, what I was claiming is that the gifts of teaching and preaching are two different gifts. Churches have Sunday School and bible study for teaching. The pastor does the preaching, and may in some cases also teach one of the Sunday School or bible studies if he is so gifted.
Preaching is educating and informing my friend, its not simply regurgitating words for the sake of hearing oneself speak.
Preaching is about speaking the gospel, encouraging the saints and admonishing them as needed. Deeper teaching comes from Sunday School class, bible studies and from mentors if they are so gifted, as well as from our individual study of scripture and prayer time. Not that the pastor doesn't impart information during preaching, of course, but once again, preaching and teaching are two different spiritual gifts. (Doesn't matter what the dictionary says - look to the bible.)
Ultimately, it is up to the Holy Spirit and the individual to learn and discern the truth. Some third party can't force it on you.
A Pastor cannot lead a flock that he does not know.
Your opinion, nothing more.
I find it amazing you claim that a man can do more than God incarnate.
LOL You cannot defend your position from the bible, so you make up stuff. Your strawman has fallen down and can't get up.
Hmmm... so one who does not know you, and cannot know you because frankly the size of your "church" makes it impossible, is going to be able to aid you in better knowing the Lord?
You seem awfully lazy. Nothing is stopping you or me from going to the pastor and asking for his help (or for a Sunday School teacher's help, or a mentor's help, or anyone else's help) if I desire a closer walk with the Lord. First and foremost, it is MY responsibility, and I should be working on that myself through bible study and prayer in addition to any help I may request.
You touch peoples hearts and minds by KNOWING them, no paster of a "flock" of 10,000 will know his charges, well other than those with the deepest pockets anyway.
But touch them in what way? Any man can 'touch' someone's heart with pretty words. From a spiritual perspective, what is important is being touched by the Holy Spirit. Your continual efforts to pin all the responsibility on the pastor and limit the ability of the Holy Spirit is very telling. (In addtion to your refusal to acknowledge that Jesus is God and that the bible is God's word.)
You seem to think teaching and preaching are seperate, they are not.
If you care to, you can read 1 Corinthians and see that they are, indeed, separate spiritual gifts.
You believe my stands unbiblical, I find yours borderline heretical.
Your stands are unbiblical, and therefore, you assessment as to what is heretical is meaningless.
One of the most important charges that are given to the head Pastors of Mega churches is to develop a Christian community within the larger community. Many of them, perhaps most of them, have succeeded in doing so.
Having seen several accidental/suicidal self-inflicted wounds from M16 rifles in which a muzzle contact or arms-length shooting distance was involved, I can tell you that the results look nothing like the result of a hit from a 9mm or .40 caliber handgun fired from several feet away.
The police and coroner's press conference statements that the gunman *killed himself with a self-inflicted wound fired from his shotgun* have now been shown to be deliberate lies at worst and erronious at the least, since we now know that the long gun in his position was a .223 caliber rifle...and not the reporteed *shotgun* that wasn't in his possession, though several of the earliest responding cops on the scenes showed up with the scatterguns from their cruisers.
My suspicion is that a very close-up *certainty* shot was made, either just after the shooter went down, or by one of the first cops on the scene. And by continuing to bring the light of public interest on the case, Larry Bourbonnais is unwittingly a part of unravelling their coverup of the actual events, and accordingly has to be silenced, one way or another.
Beginning to sound like Scientologists what with all the security and legal beagels and such.
They at least need pretty designer uniforms. Maybe something by DaVinci?
This brings up an interesting point. During one of Larry's early interviews he stated when Jeanne downed the shooter they both approached the body and Larry told her to "put one in his head." Her response was "he's already dead." Larry said he then picked up the shooters hand gun and said it was jammed. Perhaps he is the one to put "one in the shooters head."
Sounds to me like he was soliciting a witness to the shooting to commit perjury, a federal felony offense. And committing a criminal assault in the furtherance of that crime.
And maybe for what seemed to the deacon to be a good reason. If you want to get Larry's full story out, give me a FReepmail.
United States Code, Title 18,§ection 1622: Subornation of perjury
Whoever procures another to commit any perjury is guilty of subornation of perjury, and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
United States Code, U.S. Criminal Code,
Title 18, §ection 242:
Deprivation of rights under color of law
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
Deny Jesus is God???? Um, have you bothered reading what I have wrote?
Jesus is God, and in his time on this planet as recorded in the bible, he never ministered to more than about 5,000 persons. Yet, you believe some non denominational pastor can effectively educated and shepherd 10,000 a week?
God incarnate himself did not attempt this, yet I am to believe you when you claim this is the way the truth and the light?
You continue to deny that preaching is teaching. This is a fundamentally flawed and failed view. Jesus could easily have quoted existing scriptures instead of teaching his word, yet he chose to teach, not mearly parrot. When challenged on the Jewish texts he not only offered them, but also their intent and meaning.
You don’t have a pastor with 10,000 sheep, you have a CEO, and an accounts receivable. If your pastor doesn’t know you or your children or your spouse on sight, after attending a church for any length of time, you don’t have a pastor, you have a performer.
I find it interesting that you quote Chorinthians I, especially considering how much the focus is not to pay attention to the flamboyantness of the voice...... A good bit of irony in that one if you asked me. Megachurches are all about the flamboyance of the delivery, at least by their pastors and the dog and pony show delivered weekly... not the knowlege and care and involvment that guides the flock to Christ.
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