Posted on 09/26/2007 4:03:14 PM PDT by Stoat
The Rev. J. Gaston Hebert, Little Rock diocese administrator, speaks during a news conference Wednesday, Sept. 26, 2007, in Little Rock, Ark. Hebert announced Wednesday that six Arkansas nuns have been excommunicated from the Catholic Church for heresy. (AP Photo/Mike Wintroath)
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. - Six Catholic nuns have been excommunicated for heresy after refusing to give up membership in a Canadian sect whose founder claims to be the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary, the Diocese of Little Rock announced Wednesday.
The Rev. J. Gaston Hebert, the diocese administrator, said he notified the nuns of the decision Tuesday night after they refused to recant the teachings of the Community of the Lady of All Nations, also known as the Army of Mary.
The Vatican has declared all members of the Army of Mary excommunicated. Hebert said the excommunication was the first in the diocese's 165-year history.
"It is a painfully historic moment for this church," Hebert said.
The six nuns are associated with the Good Shepherd Monastery of Our Lady of Charity and Refuge in Hot Springs. Sister Mary Theresa Dionne, one of the nuns excommunicated, said the nuns will still live at the convent property, which they own.
"We are at peace and we know that for us we are doing the right thing," the 82-year-old nun said. "We pray that the church will open their eyes before it is too late. This is God's work through Mary, the blessed mother, and we're doing what we're asked to do."
At a news conference, Hebert said the nuns "became entranced and deluded with a doctrine that is heretical." He said church officials removed the sacraments from the monastery on Tuesday night.
Hebert said the sect's members believe that its founder, Marie Paule Giguere, is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary and that God speaks directly through her.
Excommunication bars the nuns from participating in the church liturgy and receiving communion or other sacraments.
The diocese said the action was taken after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a declaration that the Army of Mary's teachings were heretical and automatically excommunicated any who embraced the doctrine.
Hebert said the diocese had known for years that the nuns were following the sect and said church officials in the past had encouraged them to come back into the fold.
According to the Catholic News Service, the Army of Mary was founded in Quebec in 1971 by Giguere, who said she was receiving visions from God.
Dionne said she does not know if Giguere is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary, but said she believes God communicates through the sect's founder.
"She is doing only what God and Mary tells her to do," Dionne said.
Calls made to a spokesman for the Army of Mary in Quebec were answered by a fax machine tone.
Nuns are people, too, and subject to silly mistakes. I hope this old nun comes to her senses before she dies. Just the fact that this Canadian woman claims to be the re-incarnation of Mary, should have given the nuns pause, if they ever believed in the Assumption. But if they’re willing to go without the Sacraments, those “outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace”, then they have set themselves apart from the Church.
Some have gone overboard, to be sure, but they did that on their own, out of a sense of piety.
The Catholic Church in some places did allow these men to continue in their work, after having undergone psychological counseling. That was what was done in the 70's and 80's when it was thought that you could 'cure' people of being molesters. Looking back, from the beginning of the 21st century, it's easy to say that they were wrong, but EVERY group did this, not just the Church.
Another problem the Church had was the unwillingness for parents to put their kids through the horror of having to stand up and face their molester. Many just let it go, but their kids decided, as adults, to follow up on the abuse. Unfortunately, in most cases, the statute of limitations had run out, so nothing could legally be done to the priest. But the Church did defrock some men and strip them of their priestly priveleges, even if they weren't 'convicted' of anything.
The Catholic Church is not perfect, because she is run by human beings, the same as every other religious organization on the face of the earth.
With regards to excommunication, I'd rather the Church took her time, and was deliberate in her actions. It is a serious step.
Can you distinguish between people who call themselves “pope” and the pope who was elected by the college of cardinals? Do you think most people can?
Don’t be disheartened. FR is actually much better (in terms of outright anti-catholic vitriol and ignorance) than most other sites, unless you count the forums at catholic.com (which are obviously PRO Catholic).
I say that because at least here, you don’t get Jack Chick type-tripe. It’s refreshing to not have to explain 1,000,000 times that St. Christopher IS INDEED “still a saint” and other, similar types of blatantly ignorant mis-information that only Chick et.al. think are “facts”.
Nope. We speak our sins aloud, in the Sacrament of Penance, for our OWN benefit. We are finally owning up to the sins we've committed. The priest is there to act as 'the community' against which we've sinned, and to be the conduit, as Jesus Himself set up in the Gospels, through which forgiveness is sent from God. The priest doesn't 'forgive sins', only God can do that. The priest pronounces absolution.
Sure, we can ask for forgiveness directly from God, but we can also fall into sinful habits and attitudes, all the while justifying them to ourselves. If we have to speak those things aloud, to another person, we are challenged to confront the habits we've created, ask for, and receive, forgiveness for the attitudes we've allowed, and resolve to NOT fall back into sin. Of course, we are human, and we fail, but we know that if we repent, we will be forgiven.
"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
It is also heresy to support abortion. On those grounds the Church needs to grow a spine and excommunicate some high-profile "Catholic" politicians.
Technically both the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church refer to themselves as the one true, Catholic church - the idea being that they both believe that the other one split from them.
Well said.
I thought if heretics wanted to reconcile with the church they were welcome to as long as they renounced their heretical beliefs.
If any of these nuns come around in the future and give up these strange beliefs, aren’t they able to reconcile?
If you renounce your heretical views you are no longer a heretic. - Tom
Some people use the same line for both, to save money. I used to.
I still do, and it works just fine. What makes it work is the fact that my machine plays a voice greeting with menu prompts first, allowing the caller to either leave a voice message or send a fax. I've been using machines like this for at least fifteen years, as I recall.
“If you renounce your heretical views you are no longer a heretic. - Tom”
yes - that is true.
Welcome to the “Free”republic. It only gets worse from here, but it sure is fun. Your gonna love it!
OK .....
So he WILL excommunicate nuns (who admittedly are “strangely” following a (cult ?) leader who believes she represents Mary directly - or who claims to be Mary) ...
but ...
Why is he (other bishops) transferring homosexual priests from parish to parish who are “merely” seducing and raping young teenagers for sex?
Who are responsible (directly!) for stealing hundreds of millions from the Church by CAUSING their lawsuits to gay men?
I have to disagree. “Catholics” don’t worship Mary. I pray the Rosary daily. Is that considered worshipping her? My mom was devoted to the Blessed Mother, prayed the Rosary daily. We had two hymns about Mary at her funeral mass and our pastoral assistant even mentioned, _____, you have two Mary hymns, and I was like, yeah, and she said, I know your mom was devoted to praying the Rosary but two hymns, etc. They usually just allow one here.
We pray to Mary as an intercession/intersessor. And we know it’s not *needed* we can pray directly to God/Jesus. But, we do honor her. As Jesus’ mother.
Granted, my fav prayers our the Hail Mary, the Memorare is my favorite. If you look at the words of the Memorare, you’d see they’ll all about Jesus, her intercession.
When I was in grade school, a nun told us a story (just like a parable in the New Testament). She said, the gates were crowded, and Mary was pulling them in though the kitchen window. Maybe some who attended catholic grade school had the same story, I don’t know. But the lesson was, Mary is Jesus’ mother, and she is honored because of that. The Rosary is a great prayer and all of it is about Jesus.
I don’t know anyone who prays to dead people or angels. But I do know, I was taught as a little kid to make room for my guardian angel on my desk seat. Yeah, at the time I thought I really had to make room but as the years went by I understood it was all about teaching a lesson. I’ve never prayed to an angel or saint. Well, except St. Anthony when I lost stuff, lol, but we all know it’s just a tradition. St. Anthony please look around something is lost and can’t be found. Or St. Gerard (sp). The saint of moms. My mother pinned his medal to my body/shirt/bed when I was pregnant because he’s the patron saint of mothers, or pregnant women. We know it’s all through Jesus. A doctor told the nurse in my operating room not to remove the scapular(sp) and medal of St. Gerald that was pinned to my hospital gown. It meant something or means something to people. It’s not about worshipping since it’s all about Jesus.
Many of these traditions are “extra biblical” as you stated. Doesnt’t make them wrong. And none are worshipping.
My family does a huge Christmas Eve Dinner. Certain amount of fish, to acknowledge the Seven Sacaraments. It’s not ordained by the Church but it’s a tradition, it’s our recognition that night/prep for the Birth of Jesus. We don’t worship it or anything. It’s an Italian, or at least my family’s Italian tradition for Christmas Eve Dinner. It’s part of our family heritage. And never meat on Christmas Eve, lol.
All heritages are steeped in tradition and imo as long they honor God, Jesus, and the teachings (which are most important), what’s the big deal?
So I don’t worship Mary but I do honor her. I say the Rosary daily because the Rosary is about Jesus.
I have at least 7 fishes, and not just shell fish cos Italians know shell fish don’t count in the 7, for Christmas Eve dinner, lol. And never any meat or red gravy with meat. It’s a traditional meal to honor the coming birth of Jesus and represents the 7 Sacraments. It’s a family thing.
Confession. Tough one but still an answer. We don’t ask a human for forgiveness/absolution. And forgiveness is not given by the human priest. We ask and get from God. The human priest is just our physical way. I was taught in catholic grade school and throughout my life that’s important to go to Confession/Reconciliation. It’s a Sacrament. However, we were also taught that saying the Act of Contrition is the same or same result. Only non-catholics focus on the difference. Confession is like what happened in biblical times when one’s sins were known/public. Confession is the public acknowledgement of one’s sin (and we know sins were dealt with in public in biblical times). The priest doesn’t absolve one from sin, that’s God. The priest is the mouthpiece/human vessel so to speak. It comes from God/Jesus. I really don’t know how else to verbalize it.
Mary is not worshipped, but honored, as Jesus’ mother per the 4th Commandment. Every hymn/prayer about her is about Jesus. It’s about her intercession and Jesus talked about that in the Bible. It relates sorta to the Canaan (sp) wedding/wine when Mary interceded and again it was a lesson.
Also, many ethnic groups have their traditions. Many Catholic Italian groups have their little traditions, same with Irish and Polish (those are the 3 I’m familiar with). For example, St. Rita was a huge tradition thing in South Philly with *Italian South Philly Catholics*. Not sure any other area is familar with it. And again, it’s not a part of Catholicism but a part of certain ethnic/regional group who happen to be catholic. The same can be said for St. Patrick’s Day. It’s celebrated much differently here in the States than it is in Ireland and even regionally. My Dad was an Irish Catholic so we had to have the *meal* on St. Patty’s day. It’s more ethnic than catholic. Or more ethnic/catholic in this region but not in Ireland or a part of the Church. I’ll never forget the awful smell in the house when it was St. Patty’s Day, lol. Ham and Cabbage.
Traditions are wonderful, imo, especially when the focus or point is on Jesus/faith/Christianity. They’re exras but extras aren’t bad. We do the Christmas Eve Dinner, with the 7 fishes (and way more than 7 and no meat, lol)and we have most of the family here. To celebrate the birth of Jesus. That’s not bad in any way. It used to be at my mom’s but years ago it started being here. It’s the focus of our Christmas season. It’s the big family meal, for 30 or more. They’ve all been guilted into coming at first once it switched to here yet they all come every year. It’s a great family tradition but every single person knows the reason for the feast. It may not be their initial reason for coming and celebrating but they’re sitll coming and they can’t ignore the symbolism or reasoning.
If I may, allow me to pester you with one more point of interest:
we(Catholics) can pray directly to God/Jesus
Protestants emphasize a personal relationship with God, while Catholics emphasize a heirarchy that exists between man & God. Indeed, if one runs afoul of that heirarchy, his connection....his communication with God is severed.
I believe the Catholic term is 'ex-communication'.
I remember that, once upon a time, the entire country of Scotland was ex-communicated.
No Mary, no Jesus. No mother, no son. — Mother Teresa
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