Posted on 08/23/2007 5:45:11 PM PDT by Reaganesque
"This handsome indie Western damningly recounts the 1857 slayings of 120 settlers passing through Utah, but the didactic presentation, grim speechifying and tacked-on love story all signify a less-than-healthy regard for the audience's intelligence."
Variety Justin Chang
1/4 "The film feels less like historical drama than a venomous religious tract printed on celluloid." Minneapolis Star Tribune Colin Covert
"September Dawn has the ham-fisted lyricism of political ads and pharmaceutical commercials." Village Voice J. Hoberman
"When the movie isn't doling out ham-fisted history...it gives us magnificent vistas of a pristine prairie...and there's a deep sweetness to the subplot of Jonathan and Emily falling in love." Film Journal International Frank Lovece
1.5/4 "When watching the screen depiction of a historic event in which 120 people were murdered, giggling is not the appropriate response." Salt Lake Tribune Sean Means
1/5 "It has the chilling certitude of the self-righteous." Orlando Sentinel Roger Moore
2.5/5 "The real problem is that September Dawn isn't a very good movie. It moves too much like a public-school history pageant and gives us mono-dimensional characters who speak dialogue that fairly reeks of printer's ink." Arizona Republic Richard Nilsen
1/5 "The jarring MTV-style filmmaking is so distracting and the 'messaging' so unsubtle that after two long hours you find yourself leaving the theater with a massive headache, wondering when you started to hate Mormons." Orlando Weekly Brett Register
1/4 "Forget Grindhouse. September Dawn is the year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick." Slant Magazine Nick Schager
1/4 "Bombastic, slow-drying dramatization with lead-weight dialogue and a turgid romantic subplot." Newsday Gene Seymour
D- "Has serious problems in historical terms. But in this case they're exacerbated by the simple ineptitude of the filmmaking." One Guy's Opinion Frank Swietek
"Even if one gets past the movie's controversial depictions, there is the matter of its second-rate, made-for-television fare -- the poor battle choreography, the wooden editing and the cheesy writing." Washington Post Desson Thomson
2.5/4 "If September Dawn is a kind of Western, it's a Western utterly devoid of heroism or the usual archetypes. But the core message transcends time: Hatred laced with religious fanaticism is a toxic blend." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Dave Tianen
1/4 "Doesn't even measure up to an episode of your typical, cowboy TV show from the Fifties like Roy Rogers or The Lone Ranger. Get my drift, Kimosabe?" NewsBlaze Kam Williams
Click here for links to the full reviews.
Hugh Hewwitt in his Book “A Mormon in the White House” goes into detail about the DNC hit machine doing research on Romney back in 2004. He has been their chief target. (Something that would make any FReeper proud). The movie went into production in 2005. IMO, there may be a link but I don’t know how you would go about proving it.
I see Mr. Bean is rated G. It's not much but I like his comedy.
It would be more accurate to say that accounts or possibly rumors to this effect spread through SW Utah. Whether they did or did not say such things cannot now be determined. There is no real proof one way or the other.
Similar rumors, or just possibly accurate accounts, of Mormon intentions had a great deal to do precipitating with the mob attacks on Mormons in MO and IL. Is the same mitigation of guilt appropriate in their case, in your opinion?
Imagine Osama Bin Laden traveling through your neighborhood bragging about 9/11, pointing at you and saying "You're next infidel!". You would give him a glass of goat milk and wish him well?
OBL is a criminal and war criminal. I'd never wish him well. However, just because I'd run into OBL wouldn't justify me in getting a group together and slaughtering over 100 random Muslims, including women and children.
See the link at Post #31. The article linked discusses the effect on the victims and their descendants quite extensively. It also discusses joint memorials raised by the church and descendants of the victims.
I also posted this the other day.
I have no ancestors who were involved in the MMMassacre but feel the shame and guilt based on being a member from the same church. (Not to digress but It shames me that Harry Reid claims Mormon status in the same way I assume it shames some Catholics that Kerry claims to be Catholic).
I guess I just find it hard to let go of. Its like the Church said in their official apology. Nothing justified the murder at MMM.
165 posted on 08/21/2007 4:09:58 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
For movies that have been issued, especially big hits, you can usually find a timeline for production history. Other, I don't know.
The longest factor in the lead time is often lining up financing. Obvious hits like the Potter movies don't have this problem. Other stories or treatment may spend many years in this phase.
See post 121. THe DNC was in full swing over a year before the movie went into production in 2005.
Mormon exodus and Mexican War, 1846.
MMM - 1857.
Your account makes it sound like the two events were closely linked in time.
A greater factor was the strife between Brigham Young and the US government at the time, which many on both sides expected to result in all-out war, but which never quite reached that stage.
IMDB - Christopher Cain
Date of Birth 29 October 1943, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, USA
Birth Name Bruce Doggett
_____________________
He change dhis name probably because of the schoolyard kids having a heyday with "Dogget". Why "Cain" I wonder.
Anyone can get access to the church archive. Having said that, the real impetus of your post is that you don't trust LDS scholars. It goes to the common theme in many anti Mormon posters attitude that anyone who is a believing member is either stupid or dishonest. If an independent committee took the time to look at the records and didn't find what you wanted them to find then you'd probably say that the "real records" were hidden from their view. It seems that those against the church will never be satisfied with anything that goes against their prejudicial view.
“”I have no ancestors who were involved in the MMMassacre but feel the shame and guilt based on being a member from the same church. (Not to digress but It shames me that Harry Reid claims Mormon status in the same way I assume it shames some Catholics that Kerry claims to be Catholic). “”
That’s cool, when discussing the massacre, I think it is important for Mormons to remember it was we non Mormon American settlers that were murdered in mass by their church.
About the only argument that Romney supporters should be making is whether or not their religion’s highest leaders were involved,(in relation to the history, not his candidacy of course) it just doesn’t pay to defend the massacre itself by saying that those women and children may have deserved, or needed to be slaughtered.
In conversations about Little Big Horn I appreciate it when people’s tone changes a little bit, when I let them know that I am an army veteran and that as we discuss the battle, we should still remember that we are talking about dead American soldiers.
On these threads I would like it to become more clear that the movie portrays what may be the most horrible event in American history, the mass slaughter of American pioneers by people that only a few years before, would have considered themselves as just like the people they were destroying.
The MMM victims did not deserve their fate and were murdered.
I do wonder when Hollywood will do a movie about the 600 Mormons who died at Winter Quarters? Most of them between age 0-5. They signed a peace treaty with the Missouri Mob who took their guns as part of the surrender terms. Then breaking the treaty which said the Mormons would leave the next spring they forced them out at gunpoint in the dead of winter. The women and children and men left a trail of blood in the snow. Many starved and many died of hypothermia. Although it was not a direct "execution" it was a death sentence for over 600 of them.
Most Mormons I have talked to know about MMM and are shamed by it. Most non-Mormons I know have never heard of the mass grave site at Winter Quarters, Omaha.
Do you stake you reputation on that? Will Bagley is a non-mormon author that has studied extensively on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and has published this most comprehensive book to date Blood of the Prophets. Was he given free access to the archives?
Having said that, the real impetus of your post is that you don't trust LDS scholars. It goes to the common theme in many anti Mormon posters attitude that anyone who is a believing member is either stupid or dishonest.
Your bigotry against ex-mormons is very readily apparent to outsiders reading your post. Outsiders don't fear, nor label "anti-Mormons." That term is used to keep believing members of the LDS Church from reading any material that might not show them in a good light. So thanks for the compliment even though you didn't mean for your comment to be one.
“I do wonder when Hollywood will do a movie about the 600 Mormons who died at Winter Quarters? “
I don’t know, but it has nothing to do with a film about these victims, that were killed not by nature, but by religious murderers.
I think Hollywood will make that movie as soon as they think it might make money. Now as far as the 600 dead, Rameumptom...
Please provide a link to this information, along with the year of death. The fated Martin and Willy handcart Company (that has death tolls often atributed to the mobs) left St. Louis a full 9 years after the expulsion of the saints from Missouri. If anyone is to be blamed for their deaths....it is Brigham Young for allowing such a stupid "perpetual emigration" plan that allowed the members of his Church to start out accross the praries ill equipped, with handcarts and too late in the season for safety.
For what it is worth these people say it was about half of the figure you told us.
http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1837-1-1-1,00.html
“”
I do wonder when Hollywood will do a movie about the 600 Mormons who died at Winter Quarters? Most of them between age 0-5. They signed a peace treaty with the Missouri Mob who took their guns as part of the surrender terms. Then breaking the treaty which said the Mormons would leave the next spring they forced them out at gunpoint in the dead of winter. The women and children and men left a trail of blood in the snow. Many starved and many died of hypothermia. Although it was not a direct “execution” it was a death sentence for over 600 of them.””
I didn’t know about the event so I am having to google it, reading what this site has to say is starting to make me doubt you.
http://lds.org/gospellibrary/pioneer/13_Winter_Quarters.html
I was only providing the link showing the rules involved to get access to the archives. I found nothing there to indicate that a researcher couldn't get access to the records. I will go to the link you provided and read what Will Bagley has to say on the subject.
Your bigotry against ex-mormons is very readily apparent to outsiders reading your post.
I think bigoted is way too strong a term. I do have a problem with those who refuse to acknowledge that there is more than one side to the story. I would label those people on either the pro or con side of the issue as "closed minded". It seemed from your post that you would not accept the forthcoming book because it is being written by LDS historians. What is your opinion of LDS scholarship?
Outsiders don't fear, nor label "anti-Mormons." That term is used to keep believing members of the LDS Church from reading any material that might not show them in a good light.
What label should I use for those who attack the church on a regular basis here? It is just a label that I use without passion. My desire is for a balanced and honest telling of Mormon history. I've stated many times that one sided histories, either pro or con, are of no use when trying to get to the truth of the matter at hand. In my initial post on this thread I expressed my hope that the upcoming book on MMM would be honest and definitive. I feel this would help heal the wounds of this tragic event.
So thanks for the compliment even though you didn't mean for your comment to be one.
I wasn't trying to upset you. I was hoping for a measured response.
HMMmm...
Then, by the same logic, you tend to think there's something to the fact that THOUSANDS of Chrstians say the LDS organization is NOT Christian?
HMMmm...
Then, by the same logic, you tend to think there's something to the fact that THOUSANDS of Chrstians say the LDS organization is NOT Christian?< P>It just shows how much they HATE us!
--MormonDude(unloved)
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