Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

[1066AD]

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

[Shooter 2.5]

Sorry. You have to Freepmail me next time. These guys are sooooo easy.
What about the group who found out the mouths of the empty cartridges was damaged. They gave that as evidence the cartridges couldn’t have been fired by Oswald.

Or the clip was “missing” from the rifle and couldn’t be fired. That was funny. I guess they thought it should hang out like an AK thirty rounder.

[Shooter 2.5]

(4) When found, the Mannlicher-Carcano contained one unfired 6.5 millimeter caliber copper-jacketed, military-type cartridge, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. The cartridge was removed from the rifle by Capt. J. Will Fritz where the rifle was found. (9)

(5) Later that day, the rifle’s six-round cartridge clip was removed by Lieutenant Day in the Dallas Police Crime Laboratory.(10)

A fourth round chambered accounts for the third empty cartridge heard hitting the floor by the two co-workers on the fifth floor.
Fourth, third, two, fifth. Yeah, I know. Confusing isn’t it.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... -- BTW, - didn't you say you've fired the Carcano? Did you forget the clip falls out after the last round was chambered?"

Did I say otherwise? >:)

Many European pre-WWI military rifles operate the same way even if they're not exactly Mannlicher heritage, like the French 1886 Lebel.

Again, if the clip was defective, that might only prevent it's exit from the magazine well clip ejection port. You say that it won't reliably feed ammunition. I disagree.

Have you got any idea how the clip may have been bent? Although I think that we're not entirely certain that the sheet metal scope mount itself wasn't knocked out of alignment when it was dropped between boxes at the TSBD when Oswald fled the sniper's nest, can we say for certain that the clip was actually bent as your link purports it to be?

Here's the clip seen in the upper left corner under C2766:

[tpaine]

Say kid.. - Why was your ‘set-up ruined’ by a supposition that the Carcano has a design that ejects the clip from the top?

[The KG9 Kid]

That I understand, about 'minute of angle' and NRA High Power competition rankings.

I just didn't understand what a '1903-A03' was, and why it takes him six seconds to get past his 'creepy' trigger. The '03s I've seen have just a bit of 'take-up' and no creep. 'Trigger creep' and 'take-up' are two separate things. Creep is bad, take-up is fine.

[The KG9 Kid]

I wanted to see how many live and spent rounds the conspirators count at the scene and in the rifle. It's always been a matter of how many shots were taken from the sniper's nest with you, hasn't it? You never returned to address that several weeks ago in a previous thread.

I also can't think of any rifles aside from the Garand where the clip stays inside the magazine but ejects from the top after the last shot is fired. I certainly can't picture a design where the clip ejects from the top after the last round is chambered.

So no, what you're thinking I'm thinking is not what I'm thinking.

[tpaine]

Oswalds rifle [found with the clip still in it] did not eject its clip, - proof that the clip was damaged, - and damaged/bent clips do not feed ammo reliably.

If that's true,

Kid, it's true. - Read the article, and you will find that the clip drops out the bottom of the action when the last cartridge is chambered.

-- BTW, - didn't you say you've fired the Carcano? Did you forget the clip falls out after the last round was chambered?

Did I say otherwise? >:)

I guess I thought you were agreeing with those here who claimed that it ejected from the top

Many European pre-WWI military rifles operate the same way even if they're not exactly Mannlicher heritage, like the French 1886 Lebel.
Again, if the clip was defective, that might only prevent it's exit from the magazine well clip ejection port. You say that it won't reliably feed ammunition. I disagree.

Well, the experts in the article go into some detail about why a defective clip won't feed properly, so I don't need to.

Have you got any idea how the clip may have been bent?

No, - do you?

Although I think that we're not entirely certain that the sheet metal scope mount itself wasn't knocked out of alignment when it was dropped between boxes at the TSBD when Oswald fled the sniper's nest, can we say for certain that the clip was actually bent as your link purports it to be?

The fact that it did not drop out of the rifle after the 4th round was chambered makes it defective, correct?

[oldenuff2no]

I work with rifles all the time. Most are bolt action rifles. I know a dozen people who could pull this off with no additional practice. To be blunt about it a person who knows how to shoot and with younger eyes that focus more quickly than my old eyes should have little problem. Us older folks would be slowed down a touch as our eyes came into focus.
From a rest with one round hot in the chamber I can put three rounds inside of 2 inches at a hundred yards in 8 seconds. It simply is not that hard for anyone who has done a lot of shooting.
I believe that there was probably a second shooter but that belief is not based upon the rate of fire. No one would have set this up unless all three bullets would be matched to the same rifle.

[The KG9 Kid]

Whereas I think that the clip fed just fine, considering that Oswald murdered President Kennedy after firing three shots and chambering a fourth.

How many shots do you think Oswald fired that day?

[The KG9 Kid]

Okay, then. What's the evidence that leads you to believe the probability of a second shooter existed if you agree that the time mechanics of the shooting allow Oswald to overwhelmingly accomplish the feat?

You propose an entirely new mutation of the JFK conspiracy theory, as far as I'm aware. I'll need you to lay it out for me.

[tpaine]

Say kid.. - Why was your 'set-up ruined' by a supposition that the Carcano has a design that ejects the clip from the top?

I wanted to see how many live and spent rounds the conspirators count at the scene and in the rifle. It's always been a matter of how many shots were taken from the sniper's nest with you, hasn't it?

Actually 'how many shots' was first raised by Specter and his single bullet theory, as you well know.

You never returned to address that several weeks ago in a previous thread.

Funny, I have the impression that I answered all your questions, and that you then retired from the field. - That's what usually happens.

I also can't think of any rifles aside from the Garand where the clip stays inside the magazine but ejects from the top after the last shot is fired.
I certainly can't picture a design where the clip ejects from the top after the last round is chambered.

Me neither. Lots of self described experts here at FR tho.

So no, what you're thinking I'm thinking is not what I'm thinking.

Glad to hear you agree.

[Shooter 2.5]

I just checked mine from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. It has a light first stage, a slightly heavier creep and then stops on an even heavier release. It’s pretty bad but not something I want to spend the time on. It’s still in the cosmoline.
I prefer a two stage trigger for target rifles and my son hates them for some reason.

One of the Carcano website mention a seven pound trigger that’s crisp and the owner was very pleased with it. Funny how all the other website owners like the little rifle. They don’t seem to have mechanical difficulties, hit what they are aiming at and are overall pleased with their experiences.

[JoeA]

To: JoeA I guess I’ll have fun with this one. 1. That was his work station. He didn’t do any work that day and a series of boxes appeared in the corner where a sniper had killed a president with Oswald’s fingerprints all over the boxes. That’s like someone setting up a rifle rest in your living room while you are home and blasting out the window with a rifle. How do you account for that one when the police show up? Sounds like a frame-up, doesn’t it?

2.Someone kills the president in front of your coworkers and your initial response is to get a soda? No one saw him during the shooting either. He claimed he was having lunch, during lunch time. A perfectly reasonable explanation.

3. The rifle was bought under his known alias which was a take off of Adolf Hitler’s name. How do you account for Marina’s admission she took the pictures of Oswald and his rifle? How do you account for his fingerprints and thread from his shirt that he was wearing caught on the butt plate?

What evidence exists that it was a known alias? A. Hidel (sp?) was the name used to order the rifle, which was delivered to a PO Box registered to that name. No documents exist tying the PO Box or the order to Oswald. There are no fingerprints on the gun, but there is a partial palmprint. It’s difficult to imagine him handling the gun, firing it, and leaving only a palmprint. Something is wrong with that – the dog that didn’t bark.

As for Marina’s “admission” that she took the photo of Oswald holding the rifle, her testimony in front of the Warren Commission differs markedly from what she told the FBI in the initial interviews. And there’s a reasonable suspicion that the photo in question is doctored.

4. Not even close and that was divided by the people who thought it came from the bypass. There were some people who thought they had heard the shots from there but there isn’t a single eyewitness to anyone on the grassy knoll with a firearm. None. We now have computer enhancements for photographs. The so-called “Badgeman” behind the fence turned out to be a coke bottle resting on the corner of the low concrete wall.

isn’t a single eyewitness to anyone on the grassy knoll with a firearm nor is there one of anyone who saw anyone fire from the Book Depository. But there are many photos and films of people running toward the grassy knoll, where they thought shots came from.

5. The autopsy and the sworn testimony say one shot from the rear. The only magic bullets are the ones from the conspiracy theorists who change angles and their bullets disappear after entering two inches of flesh. Just where are all those bullets anyway?

Well you’re wrong on this one. The autopsy says two bullets from the rear. The first entering below the base of the neck, exiting through the throat. This is the so-called magic bullet that, also, according to Arlen Specter (yes, him), struck Conally. The Zapruder film shows JFK reacting to the shot as Conally turns to his left toward Kennedy, then turns to his right before he reacts to the shot. That’s an awfully slow bullet if the Gov. had enough time to turn one way then the other while the bullet allegedly courses through JFK’s neck.

Now the trauma room doctor at Parkland (with lots of experience with gunshot victims) who first attended Kennedy described the neck wound as an entry wound. He used the wound as an opening for a tracheotomy, effectively destroying that part of the evidence.

The second shot is of course the head shot. And the Parkland doctors described the headshot as entering from the right frontal lobe. There are photos of a doctor pointing to the entry point on his own skull during a press conference.

6. 2.3 inch bullet impact from the rear. Cratered bullet hole in the rear of the skull. Large pieces broken off at the front of the skull. Frame 313 shows brain matter and blood flying forward. Connelly hit his body against the back of the front seat from the blood and brain tissue. The limo and the motorcycle officer drove through that mess at eleven miles an hour. Your knowledge of bullet wounds seem to come from watching too much tv and movies.

Now, now, let’s not jump to conclusions. I don’t watch TV, but I’ll plead guilty to movies. Blood and brain matter fly off in all different directions, but the primary movement of JFK is to the right and rear, consistent with a shot from the front. He hits the back of the car and then rebounds forward, while Jackie climbs on the rear deck to retrieve pieces of his skull, thrown back by the blast.

[RGPII]

Probably about every theory has been proposed, the nitrate (paraffin) testing, did show that on his hands; but none on his cheek, leading many to say, LHO did not fire a rifle.

(This website looks left leaning, but it is just this issue I am looking for of which I read this)

“In addition, Oswald provably didn’t fire a rifle that day. His cheek was tested for nitrates and came up negative.” - http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2007/06/reclaiming-history-from-bugliosi-again.html

[tpaine]

How many shots do you think Oswald fired that day?

The commission says he fired three. I can live with that supposition.

Sure leaves a lot of you fellas and your unprovable single bullet theories swingin in the breeze tho, seeing that the Z-film contradicts them.

[The KG9 Kid]

Three rounds fired in the assassination, regardless of the speed of Zapruder's camera. Three spent cartridges found in the sniper's nest. Evidence proves that the material in Kennedy's head is located entirely in the right side of his cranium. Particle analysis shows that the fragments came from the same bullets and same rifle. Oswald was a creepy left wing loser who had priors and present reasoning for motive. That's my position.

What you protest is Specter's 'Magic Bullet Theory'.

If you say that it didn't happen that way, then there's another shooter and at least one more bullet, isn't there?

So, where is this extra bullet and extra shooter? If you believe that the shots all came from the TSBD, then did Oswald hand C2766 to 'Mystery Shooter X' so that they could take a turn?

That's what you never address, won't provide an answer for, and I don't believe that you will address it now.

That's what I mean when I say that you just say 'Nope, nope. Didn't happen that way. Specter's a crook.' and consider yourself satisfied that you've answered the question.

Account for the way the assassination really happened, please. If all you can say is 'I don't know for sure, and neither do you', then we're done ever discussing this again with one another, aren't we?

[The KG9 Kid]

Parrafin testing is baloney and archaic. It was never intended to lend evidence in court, only to scare the accused into confessing.

That goofy test is as outdated as police forensics as portrayed in a black and white James Cagney movie.

I don't think that it's ever been successfully used as evidence to convict someone in a court of law.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... There are no fingerprints on the gun, but there is a partial palmprint. It’s difficult to imagine him handling the gun, firing it, and leaving only a palmprint. Something is wrong with that – the dog that didn’t bark."

Oh good God. A reference to Oliver Stone's awful movie 'JFK'. Remember what I told you about conspiracists that quote lines from that movie, Shooter? It's not even the correct quote.

JoeA, see the pic I posted above of Oswald's Carcano 'C2766'. It's rough cosmoline-soaked furniture. You can't expect that the FBI crime lab would find latent prints on it any more than you'd expect to find fingerprints on the plastic receiver of a modern Glock pistol.

Fingerprints are also a very archaic police forensics method, just like 'parrafin tests'. I don't even think that the police commonly dust for fingerprints anymore on residential burglaries.

[spanalot]

“Still, it takes this guy forever to pull a trigger with lousy results”

You better google again. “Pull” means the force needed to move the trigger in pounds . My wall hanger springfield is in “very good” condition and I would never consider altering it.

Expert marksmem do not pull the trigger - they squeeze and the carbine in question would require several seconds to get the trigger to the point where it fires if one wants to maintain the target in the crosshairs.

Military weapons have lots of “creep and pull” to prevent accidental discharge.

[RGPII]

The Government locked up 10,000 files and pieces of evidence for 75 years (until 2036 now); it isn’t for lack of wanting to know the exact sequence of the assassination as for me.

The debated dictabelt tape analysis has been said to confirm 4 shots.

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/hscaacous.htm