Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD
Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007
Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.
The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.
The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.
The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.
Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.
In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.
The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.
The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.
Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.
It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.
The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.
The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.
Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.
In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.
One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.
Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.
I challenged this number and I was correct.
You've just noted that the actual number is 62%, and I bet the overall number is actually higher. In other words, I bet the stats are looking only at convicted murderers. Many times it is known who committed the murder, but for one reason or another (already convicted of 4 other murders, dead, etc.) the criminal is not convicted.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. It is laughable that something of this magnitude could be covered up for so long. The Gov’t can’t even keep basic secrets quiet.
I’ve seen it on television and the shooter was able to do is just fine.
Forget what? These are not qualification targets.
Anyways, good luck shooting pheasant at 50 yds with your pistol - and I trust its a bolt action.
“And to have a conspiracy that lasts over 40 years with a cast of thousands”
and how many years did it take for everyone to realize that the Kennedys were conspring to stup Monroe?
There was no reason for it to be. You may be too young to realize but prior to the gun control laws enacted in the late 60s, one could order a firearm (as ....
I wish I was too young to remember... alas. The gun was ordered in the name of A. Hidel (sp?), and shipped to a PO Box, paid by Money order in the same name. Osawld denied that it was his rifle, as did Marina in the first interview (though she later recanted that denial).
The autopsy established that the fatal shot entered the rear of the skull leaving a classic entry wound crater and exited the front of the skull leaving a classic exit wound.The autopsy was performed by a doctor who had no prior experience with gunshot wounds. Parkland doctors' impressions of the wounds differ significatnly with the official autopsy report.
Look, like tens of millions of other Americans on either side, we can obviously interpret the “overwhelming body of evidence” in different ways. And as fellow FReepers, we can agree to disagree.
I think LHO was one of multiple shooters. I do not believe he could’ve fired the three shots in contention by himself from that position with that rifle. End of story.
Happy 4th!
MM (in TX)
We've got some gun experts here; I?m reading this article; I don't quite get it but others might.
.
It's a very interesting article on how Oswalds rifle would not function properly as it had a damaged or 'bent' clip.
Long, poorly written though, - and the diagram that shows how the clip operates [as an essential part of the system, - the rifle is a single shot without one] is shown quite far down the page.
Oswalds rifle [found with the clip still in it] did not eject its clip, - proof that the clip was damaged, - and damaged/bent clips do not feed ammo reliably.
Objection: Conjecture. Supposition.
If that's true, it appears that the only operational flaw with the alleged defective clip's operation is that it did not eject from the rifle.
However, can you tell me if Oswald's rifle was empty of ammunition when it was discovered?
Yes, correct. In short, as you've essentially said, the misadjustment actually aided Oswald in the shooting.
No disrespect to the good hero intended, but Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was also a bit of a drunken hayseed committed to telling tall tales.
It was all the work of the military-industrial complex.
Marina's account places Oswald on the front porch of their rented house in Dallas spending hours performing 'snap-in' dry firing runs before the attempt on Gen. Edwin Walker's life.
That's exactly a part of the USMC marksmanship training regimen for rifle familiarization. You do it over and over and over again until the bio-mechanical action becomes second nature.
Oswald’s Carcano was found with a loaded fourth round in the chamber. The Carcano design allows the clip to be ejected from the top. So how could the rifle eject the clip from the top if the bolt was closed on the fourth round?
I also don’t believe Carcanos eject their clips on the last shot. Garands do but not the Carcano. If there is any information otherwise, I would like to see it.
I have a Springfield 1903-A03 and its action and trigger are far better than the carbine that Oswald used. It takes me 5-6 seconds to get past the creep to squeeze off one accurate shot - meaning 5-6 minute accuracy which is about what Kennedy was hit with."
I've read this and re-read it, and I confess that I can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say.
You've got that completely backwards. It's the Left that's been calling the Warren Commission Report a whitewash since before it was published. They've been 'heck-bent' on defending Lee Harvey Oswald, because it doesn't look good that the President of the United States was murdered by an ACLU card-carrying left wing American revolutionary scumbag.
5-6 minutes is 5 to 6 inches at one hundred yards.
There are 360 degrees in a circle and there are 60 minutes to a degree. It actually works out to a minute of degree is one inch at one hundred yards.
Still, it takes this guy forever to pull a trigger with lousy results. Even the most used deer rifle should be able to get three or four inches at one hundred yards. If he’s taking that long to pull a trigger, he can’t be much of a gunsmith.
One of the most telling hints I get from people calling themselves “expert marksman” is there is no such thing. That would be like claiming your a “sharpshooter expert”. That’s combining two distinct rankings. The traditional rankings are Marksman, Sharpshooter and then Expert. The NRA added Master, then High Master. Anyone claiming to be a so called “expert” should have a registered ranking card from an affiliated gun group.
Anyone not registered and claiming to be something they aren’t is no different than the thirty year old “VietNam war Navy SEALs”
The above is a very interesting article on how Oswalds rifle would not function properly as it had a damaged or 'bent'; clip.
Long, poorly written though, - and the diagram that shows how the clip operates [as an essential part of the system, - the rifle is a single shot without one] is shown quite far down the page.
Oswalds rifle [found with the clip still in it] did not eject its clip, - proof that the clip was damaged, - and damaged/bent clips do not feed ammo reliably.
If that's true,
Kid, it's true. - Read the article, and you will find that the clip drops out the bottom of the action when the last cartridge is chambered.
However, can you tell me if Oswald’s rifle was empty of ammunition when it was discovered?
The Commission said it had a round chambered when discovered.
-- BTW, - didn't you say you've fired the Carcano? Did you forget the clip falls out after the last round was chambered?
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