Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD
Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007
Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.
The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.
The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.
The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.
Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.
In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.
The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.
The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.
Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.
It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.
The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.
The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.
Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.
In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.
One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.
Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.
No, I apologize for being hasty, but on the other hand; the Walker shot is often linked up to two men;
“There were no eyewitnesses, although a 14-year-old boy
in a neighboring house claimed that immediately after the
shooting he saw two men, in separate cars, drive out of a church
parking lot adjacent to Walker’s home. A friend of Walker’s
testified that two nights before the shooting he saw “two men
around the house peeking in windows.” General Walker gave this
information to the police before the shooting, but it did not
help solve the crime. Although the bullet was recovered from
Walker’s house (see app. X, p. 562), in the absence of a weapon
it was of little investigatory value. “- Warren Commission Report http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walker.txt
More than one man? Then, there could be a conspiracy.
What about the event makes you think he couldn’t have pulled it off alone. It doesn’t really take much to stick a rifle out of a window and fire off 3 shots, run, and then to kill a police officer once found.
Here we go again..........scannell
“He could have hit a man’s body with a pistol.”
Now you are really reaching - moving object at 40 yards - hard to do with a shotgun and 6 shot.
Please cite support for you statement on his abilities.
Not if the pistol is resting on a window sill. I didn’t say you hit him in the head. My point is that it at a slow moving target moving almost directly away from the shooter. Hardly an impossible shot. A drunken lawyer with a .22 might have been able to kill Kennedy.
A few year back I stood at that window at the Book Depositor, (actually the window next to it) and any thoughts of "conspiracy" I ever had went away.
I don't claim to be some kind of expert marksman but I have fired a variety of long guns from 22s to 30-06s and even Civil War vintage riffled muskets, and I know damn well I could have hit a target from that range with any of those weapons.
What was ironic was when I was standing at that window looking out I said aloud "I didn't realize how close this was" and some total strange sanding next to me said exactly the same.
IMHO, it was an easy shot.
Your post just proved you don’t know a thing about firearms.
It could have been space aliens too, or maybe the Sister of the Little Poor, but to have a theory, you have to have something to back it up with something.
And to have a conspiracy that lasts over 40 years with a cast of thousands -- if you actually buy any of this CIA, FBI, Mafia, Castro, LBJ, Nixon or what ever other crap floats out of Oliver Stones drug addled brain) and no one spills the beans is beyond comprehension to me.
Hell, we can't even keep secrets on wire tapping known terrorists with only a handful of people sworn to secrecy in the know but somehow we can on killing a president.
To buy those theories, you have to believe that every one from the Dallas police force to the Attorney General of the US (the Presidents brother, BTW) participate in the cover up and no one talks even after 40 years.
That's just goofy!
Some people have no idea what a handgun is capable of hitting. They get all their information from tv or the movies where a hundred rounds are fired and the opponents are less 30 feet away. I have seen adults miss mansized targets at 15 yards away and don’t think they are doing that bad because tv lets them see the same thing.
What a lot of people don’t know in order to qualify for the police or military, they shoot pistols at fifty yards standing up.
I already discussed a friend who’s down right scary with a Freedom Arms .454 Casull. He shoots claybirds on a dirt bank at 60 yards away and then works on the pieces. That’s standing up and a two hand hold.
NRA silhouette matches end at 100 yards standing up and some shoot with open sights. The only problem at just about any range inside of 300 yards with a pistol is the sight radius and knowing where to aim. Solve that with a scope with known adjustments and anyone who knows what they are doing can hit something as small as a waste paper basket.
Anyone who disagrees with this doesn’t know firearms.
LOL. I always laugh at that stuff too. That's show biz I guess. ;~))
I do recall the first time I ever fired a hand gun -- probably the least accurate weapon ever made -- a 32 snub nose "belly" gun.
I was shooting at a 1 gallon tin can probably less than 10 yards away and thought I had missed all five shots because I didn't see the can move.
I went up and looked at the can, and it had five holes in it. ;~)
Kind of scary that even someone who didn't have a clue what they were doing could be "deadly accurate."
According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports for the most recent year available (2005) it breaks down like this:
Overview: Nationwide in 2005, 45.5 percent of violent crimes and 16.3 percent of property crimes were cleared by arrest or exceptional means.
Of the violent crimes of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault, murder had the highest percentage—62.1 percent—of offenses cleared.
Of the property crimes of burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft, burglary was the offense least often cleared with 12.7 percent cleared by arrest or exceptional means.
Nationwide in 2005, 42.2 percent of arson offenses cleared by arrest or exceptional means involved juveniles, the highest percentage of all offense clearances involving only juveniles.
I got my BA Degree in Criminal Justice and it is a subject I teach as part of a special inner city program. These stats haven't changed significantly since I got my degree in 1980. I'm also a former State Parole & Probation Officer. It get's worse: The recidivism rate for most seriously violent felons is about 80%. Recidivism is the percentage of felons who will re-offend within ONE YEAR of their release from prison.
Murders are fairly easy to solve, with the exception of the drug related; the pro hit or the serial killer. There are approx 50 of those operating in the USA at any given time. But run of the mill murder? It's usually pretty straightforward. The killer and the victim usually know each other and have some sort of history. That's where the investigation starts for detectives. They develop their snitches (cause killers like this are usually pretty stupid. They'll brag and somebody will roll over to get a better deal for themselves on something unrelated).
Lemme tell you, At one time I supervised over 300 of the most violent and dangerous felons on the Eastern Seaboard. They're walking our streets. They stand behind you in line at the grocery store, sit beside you in Church and attend PTA meetings at your kid's school. If you think you can "spot" a dangerous felon by his (or her) looks, you're in for an eye opening surprise.
You are correct and a gentleman; but if you mention Walker; look at the things he said:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walker_e.htm
“Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit?
General WALKER. We discussed that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection between the two?
General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is?
General WALKER. Yes; I do. “
And what had happened to Reynolds? From testimony:
General WALKER. “I would say sometime I saw a notice in the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away.”
“Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can you tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald had, as that is the statement that started all this? You indicated that Ruby and Oswald had common acquaintances.
General WALKER. I thought DeMar’s statements—I believe the man is De-Mar—were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the newspaper, if you call that hearsay.”
Admittedly some but not all info garnered from the newspaper.
And this quote:
“Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that would indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on the assassination of the President?
General WALKER. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a definite recognition of Conspiracy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Suggesting that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was involved?
General WALKER. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when one of its members does it, who thinks like they do. “
General WALKER. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over the country that Rubenstein (Jack Ruby) and Oswald had some association.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you indicate to us what it was?
General WALKER. Well, I are wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein can take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick up the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us when and where that happened?
General WALKER. I haven’t been able to verify that it happened for sure, but I have been told that it happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
General WALKER. My information came from a repairman, from another fellow to a friend of mine, to me.
General WALKER. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short period living in the same apartment house where Ruby’s sister lived.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is Ruby’s sister’s name?
General WALKER. Eva Grant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what apartment house that is?
General WALKER. No; I don’t recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who verified this?
General WALKER. I say I believe I verified it.
Read his book already. No shots missed. 3 shots. 3 hits. Done.
You just proved me correct with my doubt of the 40% number. I appreciate the well thought out response and facts. I’m actually very willing to bet that I can do quite well spotting the average violent felon. I don’t buy that it is the clean cut kid behind me at church or at the grocercy store, though I do understand that all violent felons don’t look like violent felons.
Because I was off by 5.5%? Because when you stack up the percentages against the real numbers it's not that big a difference. It's also regional. The national averages take into account fairly low crime states (in terms of street crime) like Vermont versus ultra high crime areas like Chicago.
A habitual violent offender will stick out in church but not in a generalized crowd like say going to the county fair. Also, felons aren't necessarily violent deranged halfwits. I had a married couple who both were age 65+ guilty of Food Stamp Fraud. Big $$$ believe it or not. She was slowly wasting away from Leukemia, so her probation was a death sentence. He wasn't much better off. They were white and went to church...actually worked at a church. You'd never know. The truly psychotic are certainly "spottable" but you'd be amazed at the number of sheep who are totally unaware of their surroundings....unaware that they're being actively hunted until it's waaaay too late. Me? I'm a sheepdog and I only hang with sheepdogs: SHEEPDOGS
Yeah, he is a credible source that can be depended on....
The overwhelming evidence in this case is that LHO is the only guilty party. The one thing I haven't seen discussed much on this thread is Jack Ruby's involvement. IMO he is the cause (indirectly) of all these lame conspiracy theories. He was not a mob hit man. If he was, why the hell would he take his dog and leave it in his car if he was going to kill someone. Ruby's killing of LHO was a chance thing that really screwed up the whole investigation of the assassination and caused too much wild speculation.
“No credible witnesses place him on the sixth floor”
His prints were on the weapon and on the boxes used to create the snipers nest.
“The gun was not in his name, nor was his ownership of it established”
There was no reason for it to be. You may be too young to realize but prior to the gun control laws enacted in the late 60s, one could order a firearm (as did Oswald) from the Montgomery Wards catalog with no background checks and no paperwork. There is paperwork establishing that he did order such a gun.
“The fatal shot comes from the front and to the right, splattering the back of the car and the motorcycle policemen to the left rear with blood and brain matter.”
The autopsy established that the fatal shot entered the rear of the skull leaving a classic entry wound crater and exited the front of the skull leaving a classic exit wound.
You were off by 55%, not 5.5%. Plus, as you noted, the crazy random drug killings are more difficult to solve.
I thought I was clear, but I guess not. I am speaking about violent felons. Murderers, rapists, etc. I realize that white collar crimes are often committed by those you’d least suspect.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.