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Time to talk [Time to PUKE]
Idiot Acharonot ^ | Sept. 21, 2006 | Lee "IQ in the negative numbers" Marsden

Posted on 09/21/2006 12:26:05 PM PDT by Alouette

By stigmatising organisations such as Hizbullah, Hamas, there is no longer necessity to respect their constituencies, democratic mandates

Lee Marsden Published: 09.21.06, 16:59

Today, the United States’ campaign to reshape the Middle East is an unmitigated disaster. The ambitious project to create a democratic region has resulted in the deaths of over seventy thousand people, mainly civilians, in the Middle East and beyond.

Recent democratic elections in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories and Israel have resulted in more rather than less violence. For Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice this may be the acceptable “birth pangs of democracy” but for millions in the Middle East the very notion of US-sponsored democracy is a misnomer.

Rather than assisting democracy and the perpetual peace that is supposed to ensue from it, the United States is perceived as a destabilising force that has wrought havoc in many societies and economies, be it intentional or not.

In identifying the promotion of democracy as a U.S. national security objective, the Bush administration has sought to influence the outcomes of elections, refused to deal with democratically elected governments not of its choosing, and arguably used democracy promotion as a Trojan horse to undermine governments in Iran and Syria.

In doing so, America has seriously undermined both its own democratic credentials and its ability to influence change in the region.

Greatest obstacle to peace and democracy

It is the Bush administration's dichotomous presentation of its war on terror that is the greatest obstacle to peace and democracy in the region. In attempting to portray conflicts in the region as between good and evil, freedom and terrorism, democrats and “Islamo-fascists”, debate is closed down and opportunities for engagement rejected.

Just as in the Cold War when nationalist movements were equated with communism, so now Islamic movements are regarded as tyrannical and belligerent - to be defeated rather than negotiated with.

By stigmatising organisations such as Hizbullah and Hamas as terrorist, which have legitimately built their reputations on extensive social welfare provision and a lack of corruption, there is no longer a necessity to respect their constituencies and democratic mandates. And yet it is only by engagement and searching for common ground that a way forward can be found in the region.

Engagement does not necessarily connote agreement; indeed healthy opposition and rivalry are essential components of democratic practice between nations, just as it is within nations.

What is necessary is being able to respect an opponent's right to hold different views. Democrats should seek to convert enemies into adversaries through the contestation of ideas rather than bullets. Demonising organisations and individuals reduces the possibility of negotiating peaceful outcomes to a zero sum game.

The demonised want similar things for their own families and neighbours that are taken for granted in America: the right to a peaceful life, to work, be educated, have a decent standard of living and not live under foreign occupation.

By branding others as fanatical, irrational and threatening, violent solutions are bound to appear more appropriate than attempts at resolving differences. Conflict resolution requires some recognition that opponents may have legitimate grievances and concerns, and that these need to be addressed.

Talk with the enemy

If the United States is genuinely interested in Middle Eastern democratisation, then it needs to start a dialogue not just with its friends in the region but also with its enemies, including Syria and Iran.

It needs to respect the electoral wishes of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and enter into direct talks with Hamas about resuming financial assistance. At the same time it needs to take note that what is good for the Middle East must necessarily be what works for both Israel and its Arab neighbours.

As part of a more considered strategy of engagement, leading to the establishment of democratic norms, the United States should encourage the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, the immediate release of all democratically elected members of the Palestinian Assembly held in Israeli gaols, insist on respecting the sovereignty of Lebanon and engage with Hizbullah as a component of the Lebanese polity.

Over the past five years, we have heard much from the Bush administration about freedom and liberty but little about justice, fairness and respect in the Middle East. Without these there can be no freedom or liberty, and certainly no democracy.

Winston Churchill famously said that “jaw jaw is better than war war”, and this could still be America's contribution to peace in the Middle East. The time has come to start talking directly to leaders of antagonistic governments and organisations, as representatives of their peoples, and seek to achieve settlement to problems on the basis of equity and sustainability.

Lee Marsden is a lecturer in International Relations at Oxford Brookes University in the United Kingdom. Courtesy of the Common Ground News Service


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 21stcenturycrusades; antisemite; appeasement; barfalert; dajooz; dnctalkingpoints; hamas; hezbollah; hezbos; hizbollah; holywar; islam; israel; jihad; muslims; prohezbo; proterrorist; religion; religionofpeacealert; religionofpeacetm; religiousintolerance; terrorism; trop; usefulidito; waronterror; waronterrorism; whywefight; worldwar4; worldwariv; wot; ww4; wwiv
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1 posted on 09/21/2006 12:26:06 PM PDT by Alouette
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To: 1st-P-In-The-Pod; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; af_vet_rr; agrace; albyjimc2; Alexander Rubin; ...
FRmail me to be added or removed from this Judaic/pro-Israel/Russian Jewry ping list.

Warning! This is a high-volume ping list.

2 posted on 09/21/2006 12:26:28 PM PDT by Alouette (Psalms of the Day: 135-139)
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To: Alouette

"Mooky?"


3 posted on 09/21/2006 12:27:58 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("Burgler drops dresser, shot in chest, fills drawers." --Titan Magroyne)
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To: Alouette

Another member of the Neville Chamberlain crowd steps forward.


4 posted on 09/21/2006 12:30:45 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Alouette
The time has come to start talking directly to leaders of antagonistic governments and organisations

The Iranians would love to be there but, according to the British FM, they have tremendous 'logistical difficulties' hindering their ability to make their appointments to sit down and talk.

5 posted on 09/21/2006 12:31:39 PM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Alouette
In attempting to portray conflicts in the region as between good and evil, freedom and terrorism, democrats and “Islamo-fascists”, debate is closed down and opportunities for engagement rejected.

No, idiot - when Iran threatens to "wipe Israel off the map" and Islamofascists say they don't want to "get along" with us, they want to kill us - THEN "debate is closed down and opportunities for engagement rejected."

6 posted on 09/21/2006 12:34:27 PM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: All

PUKE Indeed!! It seems the "can't keep his mouth shut" Clinton made a statement this a.m. that he couldn't see any reason why the President couldn't talk with the "mullahs"!! I would like someone here to tell me just how many MULLAHs Clinton talked to when the attacks on our country happened time and time again with NO response from the CLINTONS WH./


7 posted on 09/21/2006 12:35:10 PM PDT by cousair
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To: Alouette
By stigmatising organisations such as Hizbullah and Hamas as terrorist, which have legitimately built their reputations on extensive social welfare provision and a lack of corruption, there is no longer a necessity to respect their constituencies and democratic mandates.

I understand Hitler took very good care of the German (Aryan) people. Just because he sent trainloads of Jews off to death camps is no reason to call him a monster, is it?

Shalom.

8 posted on 09/21/2006 12:35:42 PM PDT by ArGee (The Ring must not be allowed to fall into Hillary's hands.)
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To: Alouette

The U.S. needs to "enter into direct talks with Hamas about resuming financial assistance"?

Really? Why do we "need" this?

How about some encouraging words regarding self sufficiency? You can do it, we know you can! (Did those greenhouses get rebuilt yet?)


9 posted on 09/21/2006 12:36:27 PM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Alouette

I just wish I could give the whole world a great big hug and then everything would be okay again.

(...sniff...)


10 posted on 09/21/2006 12:43:22 PM PDT by End Times Sentinel (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: Alouette
Lee Marsden's brain must have been AWOL when he wrote the article. Its full of sentimental mush, clap trap and all the usual liberal buzz about "conflict resolution," "understanding our differences," "negotiation" and "dialogue." All of which does not begin comprehend the nature of the enemy. Marsden embraces the moral relativism of our time, which puts democracies and dictatorships on the same moral place. Much less does he comprehend the Islamofascists are not interest in co-existence with the West; they want to replace it with the superior civilization of Islam. Make no mistake: if Marsden and his ilk have it their way, we will all get killed.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

11 posted on 09/21/2006 12:44:47 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Tokra
If someone wants to kill you, what is the point of talking to that person? Marsden can be an idiot. Would he be willing to talk his own murderer?

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

12 posted on 09/21/2006 12:46:50 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Alouette
Work with me here, Bro Marsden:

Iran invaded our embassy in violation of international law, took people under diplomatic protection hostage, held them for 444 days, and never repudiated those acts, but rather made one of the perps president.

Back in late '01 or early '02 a Pakistani mullah said,"Just one American soldier on Pakistani soil and we will send American diplomats packing, some without heads."

With a track record like that, I might consider giving these bozos a phone call, but I sho' ain't getting in the same room for tea and biscuits with them. Let them come to me, submit to a strip-search and body cavity search and medical quarantine for 6 months, THEN I'll talk.

Maybe.

13 posted on 09/21/2006 12:48:01 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Reality is not optional.)
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To: ArGee
And so did the Soviets. Liberals apparently see only what they want to see. They seem incapable of appreciate the simple truth that our enemies want to wipe us out. Sometimes the world IS really black and white. Its not all shades of gray, however Marsden and the rest of Left would desperately like it to be.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

14 posted on 09/21/2006 12:49:14 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: siunevada
Yes, why not have them take responsibility for their own lives? But the Left feels Arabs are incapable of living without Western benovelance so in giving aid to tyrants they end up perpetuating the very conditions of hopelessness and despair they want to change.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

15 posted on 09/21/2006 12:51:56 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
And so did the Soviets.

You are so right.

Henry Kissinger seemed to think that we should treat other nations based on how they treated us, not their own people. However, history has shown that how they treat their own people previews how they will treat us if they can.

Bottom line - morality matters.

Shalom.

16 posted on 09/21/2006 1:00:59 PM PDT by ArGee (The Ring must not be allowed to fall into Hillary's hands.)
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To: Alouette
Pure fraud. Saddam Hussein's 35 year career as the Stalin of Iraq cost that country approximately 7 to 8 million lives, according to population studies by the National Geographic Society. Evidence of the sheer numbers of the massacred and systematically tortured Islamic people of Iraq has been either ignored or soft pedaled by opponents of the Bush Doctrine. Regularly ignored are the many mass graves that contain at least 300,000 murdered civilians, victims of the Hussein regime.

The 70,000 dead mentioned here are victims of the same people, Saddam's henchmen and his Islamo-fascist allies. But to oppose and actually do something about this ongoing genocide is a crime in the eyes of anti-American leftists like the author here. This man has the blood of future victims on his hands, if he gets his way and the US reverts to the failed Clinton policies of appeasement, inaction, and self-delusion regarding the Islamo-facist threat to civilization.

70,000 lives lost is a mere skirmish in what is rapidly coming to be a world war for the very survival of Western Civilization, and the author is on the very wrong side of that future.

17 posted on 09/21/2006 1:11:13 PM PDT by Richard Axtell
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To: Alouette
By stigmatising organisations such as Hizbullah, Hamas, there is no longer necessity to respect their constituencies, democratic mandates

The rest of the world is still in a quandry over whether Hezbollah and Hamas ARE terrorist organizations.

Lions Gate Films had no problems with Hezbollah doing promotion for Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 in Lebanon.

The enemy walks among us. They have NO MORAL COMPASS.

They would have sympathized with Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR.

18 posted on 09/21/2006 1:15:25 PM PDT by weegee (Remember "Remember the Maine"? Well in the current war "Remember the Baby Milk Factory")
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To: Alouette
Winston Churchill famously said that “jaw jaw is better than war war”
Yes, that is true generally. However, there are other Churchill quotes that are more appropriate for the current situation. Where to start.....
19 posted on 09/21/2006 1:43:13 PM PDT by Indomitable_Briton
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To: Alouette

Mardsen talks out of both sides of his mouth. Democracy in the ME is bad, but we are supposed to support bad choices when they are the result of democracy. I don't think he understands the concept of carrots and sticks.

Meanwhile, a quote from Goldwater came to my mind...

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"


20 posted on 09/21/2006 4:37:29 PM PDT by GoLightly
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