"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
-- Manuel II Paleologus, as quoted by Pope Benedict XVI
Posted on 09/16/2006 9:55:59 PM PDT by dervish
'snip'
I was reminded of this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury of the dialogue carried on-- perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara-- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was probably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than the responses of the learned Persian.
The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship of the three Laws: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an. In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point-- itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself-- which, in the context of the issue of faith and reason, I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: There is no compulsion in religion. It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat.
But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels,” he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words:
(Excerpt) Read more at cwnews.com ...
The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.
God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.
As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: In the beginning was the logos. This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts with logos.
'snip'
I read the entire speech earlier, and I dont see what all the crying is about, sheesh.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus
Marking.
"But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality"
The religion of Islam has at its center a God that is not bound to reason, morality or anything. The result is chaos and death, imposition of will as an end unto itself. Per Pope Benedict the problem begins in their conception of a God without reason.
This is a stupid thing to excerpt.
Read the whole thing... it has NOTHING to do with that small excerpt.
Here is the official transcript:
Faith, Reason and the University
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html
Here is what an official spokesman for the Vatican said:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702933/posts
His address was to REPRESENTATIVES OF SCIENCE, not theologians or reporters or politicians or "the common man" and it was extolling academics to stop marginalizing religion. It had nothing to do with Islam.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus
Right and wrong. The discussion of Islam is central to his message - that Christianity is based on Logos.
It places Christianity in the middle - not reasonless like Islam (see the excerpt) but not pure Godless reason like science.
exactly.
I read an article today where an egyptian scholar or somesuch said "This is worse than the cartoons". WTF. These people would be worth a Monty Python movie if they weren't so murderous and evil. I hope the Pope doesn't cave.
The Pope is exhorting the academic world to accept that theology has something very important to say to the "scientific ethos" if it is "to be obedient to the truth".
"... In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.
"Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today. In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world's profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures."
He intended "dialogue of cultures" to refer as much to the dialogue between academia and theology as it does to social cultures, it appears.
The reference the Pope made "...of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both..." and much later the inclusiveness of his statement "...the world's profoundly religious cultures..." makes it clear that he supported Islam's inclusion in this exhortation that theology be considered part of the academic culture when he said, "A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures."
His thoughts about Islam itself may be given on another day, but it was not that day.
Not according to the Vatican spokesman:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702933/posts
His message was not about Islam, but was exhorting "REPRESENTATIVES OF SCIENCE" to reconsider their marginalizing of theology.
FYI
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
-- Manuel II Paleologus, as quoted by Pope Benedict XVI
They are cockroaches, human cockroaches striving to attain a tribal mentality.
Bttt!
Of course, that would have been a boring story, so the MSM didn't report that.
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