BOSNIA: 1,000 BODIES EXCAVATED IN RECORD MASS GRAVE

AKI/VPR ^ | Aug-17-06 | (Vpr/Aki)

[Westlander]

Forensic experts have excavated over 1,000 bodies from a mass grave in the village of Kamenica in eastern Bosnia.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

More dead Christians.

[Tinian]

At least we found those 100,000 in mass graves that Clinton cited as the reason for bombing Serbia in support of the Muslim Jihadists.

Better yet, from the posted article we get:

A dozen Bosnian Serb generals and high-ranking officials have been indicted for the Srebrenica massacre by the United Nations' Hague war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. But five of them, including Bosnian Serb war time leader Radovan Karadzic and his general Ratko Mladic - both of whom have been indicted for genocide as well as war crimes remain at large.

Take a gander at who's in the center of this pic, swapping hats with Mladic (aka the Butcher of Srebrenica):

Yep -- that's none other than Democrat presidential candidate General Wesley Clark wearing Mladic's hat and Mladic wearing the hat of American General Wesley Clark.

This, of course, was before Penis-Gate, when we suddenly found a national moral outrage over the "ethnic cleansing" of "tens-of-thousands" of ethnic minorities.

I watched Jamie Shae show the world "satellite photos" of "mass graves" which didn't show the bulldozed trenches typical of mass graves, but instead showed rows and rows of neat square grave shafts.

And none of those graveyards Jamie Shae showed the world, located to the meter by satellites, have yet been documented by workers on the ground.

So many lies by Clinton about Kosovo, so many civilian deaths in Kosovo caused by Clinton's infatuation with his penis -- and nobody gives a damn.

[infidel_and_proud]

The usual terrible Wikipedia kind of redeems itself with a groovy map of the column's movement from Srebrenica to Tuzla....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Srebrenica_massacre_map.jpg

Kamanecia is between Srebrenica and the Konjeviæ Polje and Nova Kasaba road.

The ABiH think the column lost up to 2,000 men in the savage ambush the VRS BLIB had hastily set up for the second half of the column.

Bosnian Serb witnesses spoke of the trees being full of Muslims who'd hung themselves and of being able to walk through the forest without having to step on solid ground: the muslim bodies covered the entire area.

The survivors also spoke of the VRS artillery being deadly ( GEDDIT? ) accurate. You can actually see some Muslims being hit by a direct hit from Serb artillery from the Zoran Petroviæ video. The VRS artillery were homing in on the motorolas the column used.

So , no real mystery how the bodies in the mass grave got there , assuming of course that they are indeed muslims from Srebrenica.

They were killed in a legitimate ambush, ruthless and very one sided, but that it seems is war.

[Bokababe]

He's absolutely right, NYRep. Somewhere around 500,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies (mostly Serbs) were killed at the deathcamp, Jasenovac, alone.

These websites are all from non-Serb sources:

http://www.jasenovac.org/whatwasjasenovac.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp

http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/pages/t034/t03448.html

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005449

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Jasenovac.html

http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/919728.htm

Estimates vary, but at least 1,000,000 Serbs out of a population of 6,000,000 Serbs in Yugoslavia died of all causes during WWII. It was the largest percentage of a population loss of any country in the world during the war -- and most of the Nazi mass-murders of Serb civilians went free.

Head of the WWII Nazi Croatian Ustashi government, Ante Pavelic, died in exile in Spain. 2nd in command, Andrija Artukovic, lived in the US for thirty years and everyone knew who he was and what he did. He wasn't deported until the mid-1980's when he generated sympathy because he was a very old, senile man in a wheelchair being sent back to stand trial.

Two more Ustashe, Ivo Rojnica and Milivoj Asner, are still at large and the Simon Wiesenthal Museum publicly urged the goverment of Serbia to go after them, just last week: http://www.syracuse.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-19/115518624221980.xml&storylist=international

And if you think that "that was then & this is now", you might want to check this out: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;s=Croatia%20human%20swastika Croat fans formed a human swastika at a soccer match just a few days ago. Croats tried to pretend that it didn't mean anything, but here is an email excerpt from my godchild's father just yesterday -- he is an American Serb:

"Europe this summer was great with one very low point being
watching Serbia V. Holland in Prague while Croat
twenty-somethings screamed in song "Kill (Murder) Serbians"
over and over and over again."

[infidel_and_proud]

Well you asked for it, brave yanks are giving their lives in the middle east for what? So the Iranians can take over the oil rich south? Or so bin laden and his crazed MB can rule the roost in the middle?

NO! it's so that War Nerd can educate the lot of you....

http://www.exile.ru/2002-September-06/war_nerd.html

"But nobody seems upset about it. I started wondering, am I the only American who thinks some overpaid USAF heads should roll for this?

I tried talking about it to some people in my office. But they acted like I was a traitor -- like it was unpatriotic to mention how badly the USAF fucked up.

I don't get that attitude. The traitors are the brass who left our country defenseless, for Christ's sake. How is it unpatriotic to want some of the sorry USAF brass stood up against a wall for that?"

He does have a point.....

I remember the swagger of some American , who , in the early days of the Iraqi fiasco, actually thought that Iraqi politics would soon seem like a rather energetic version of a local Indiana Womens Committee meeting....

i.e. we are talking hare brained....

Since the Iraqi experiment went bottoms up , my local expert American , who would previously have lectured me endlessly on the merits of democracy , and would make a point of mocking my limp , and who was once so ever so talkative , has gone missing....

AWOL...

His local girlfriend being the only link between "Glorious democracy" and "Mission accomplished".....and all she can muster with regards to "democracy in the middle east" is.....

erm.....

well , F all...

CHRIST, TALK ABOUT THICK.....

[infidel_and_proud]

And is this beautiful or what?

http://www.exile.ru/2002-September-06/war_nerd.html

"And the first step in building a real ass-kicking American Imperial Army is making a few overpaid military "executives" pay for not wanting to defend our country. So let's find out who on the USAF "management team" was supposed to be in charge of defending American airspace. Once we've identified the USAF brass who messed up, we'll settle this the way the Romans would've done it: put'em on a bus in leg-irons and unload 'em at the WTC ruins. Then lead 'em up to a chopping block, one by one, and cut their fucking heads off. Take the heads -- put the little blue caps back on, you know, show some respect for their rank and all -- and stick their heads on spikes in front of the burnt wing of the Pentagon.

Then go out there and kick some foreign ass. Not for money. For Glory and the goddamn American Empire. That's what I call "right-wing."

Now that is beautiful.....

[infidel_and_proud]

"Then lead 'em up to a chopping block, one by one, and cut their fucking heads off."

Any objections? None? Good, let's start killing.....

[wideminded]

Considering one body can break up into a dozen parts or more, they are likely counting individuals numerous times.

Forensic anthropologists are not that dumb.

[Bokababe]

"Forensic anthropologists are not that dumb."

No, but news writers often are -- especially the NYT and Newsweek variety.

Unfortunately that is not the case here. The writer actually is a dear friend of mine and a very good reporter.

[joan]

Until they have the DNA evidence for each part/partial skeleton, they cannot know whether the femur in one bag matches the shoulder bones and ribs in another bag, etc.

Additionally this is a very political thing here and people/spokemen are often compromised/corrupt. They are geared towards seeing only one truth.

For example, Stella Jatras told me of her friend, Larry Carter, a former policeman from California, who was there in 1997/1998 to search for Muslim and Croat victims, but in each and every case the mass graves turned out to be dead Serbs. When he spoke to his superiors about the descrepancy in the news and reports, he was told to shut up.

[Hoplite]

Considering one body can break up into a dozen parts or more, they are likely counting individuals numerous times.
...
Until they have the DNA evidence for each part/partial skeleton, they cannot know whether the femur in one bag matches the shoulder bones and ribs in another bag, etc.

This issue was addressed specifically in May of 2000 during during the Krstic Srebrenica trial with the testimony of Jose Pablo Baraybar, who worked on the Srebrenica exhumations and is now head of the OMPF in Kosovo.

21   Q. We can move on to the next objective of
22   forensic anthropology, and that is the MNI or minimum
23   number of individuals. Now, before I show you any
24   exhibits, can you explain to the Judges what the
25   purpose of the MNI test is?

Page 3793

1   A. Right. If we were to encounter a grave with
2   complete individuals, one of the first questions that
3   the Prosecution will ask us is: "How many people were
4   in the grave?" In that case, we will do what we
5   normally know as a head count. You can just simply
6   count how many bodies you are seeing.
7   I mentioned earlier that the human body
8  contains 206 bones. Let's imagine for a moment that
9   instead of complete individuals, we have a number of
10   fragments of people, a number of body parts in there.
11   You have seen from the previous testimonies that it is
12   not easy, even while excavating, to be able to count
13   how many remains we have there. And even if we can
14   count them, we still do not know how many people are
15   represented by those remains.
16   Therefore, the minimum number of individuals
17   is a conservative, again, approach as to say at least
18   how many individuals are necessary to account for the
19   number of body parts or bones we have recovered.
20   Q. Now, you've put together a number of exhibits
21   to explain this scientific concept to the Judges. And
22   if you have Exhibit 227 -- the usher can assist you --
23   could you explain to the Judges what is represented by
24   this diagram?
25   A. Although I am using the example of a left

Page 3794

1   forearm in this case, this is basically the same thing
2   as a head count, meaning two left forearms will
3   indicate that at least we have two people, primarily
4   because nobody tends to have more than two left
5   forearms.
6   If I may move to the second exhibit, 229.
7   Right. This actually is more like the cases we've been
8   dealing with, meaning fragments. Let's just assume
9   again that we have two females that are from the same
10   side but are two different parts of the female. In
11   this one we got the top or proximal part of the bone
12   and the mid-part of the bone, and in this one we have
13   the mid-part and the bottom part, that is, the distal
14   part.
15   MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Baraybar, if I could just
16   interrupt you there. The witness is indicating, on
17   Exhibit 229, that in the left portion of the photograph
18   is the proximal portion of the femur, and in the
19   right-hand photograph, the distal portion of the right
20   femur.
21   Q. Please continue, sir.
22   A. Considering that we cannot actually fit these
23   two fragments and make one femur, we have to take again
24   a conservative approach and say that we assume that
25   these two fragments, although not fitting with one

Page 3795

1   another, represent one individual. That would be the
2   way we would construct a minimal number of
3   individuals. Otherwise, we could say that these are
4   two femurs. But we are taking it as only one.
5   Q. But am I right in saying that potentially in
6   any grave site, these two portions of bone could
7   represent two individuals?
8   A. That is correct.
9   Q. So this technique of counting individuals
10   naturally always under-counts the number of people in a
11   grave?
12   A. That is correct.

Give it a rest already Joan - the only way to perpetuate your version of Srebrenica is to lie, so at least do yourself the favor of not trying to recycle lies who's shelf life has already expired.

[joan]

Your post actually shows they could possibly (and I'll be they do - at least at the preliminary headline announcements) get more people out of only fragments of bones, not just the 206 bones.

For example, the guy says that if they have two left forearms it is 2 separate people - but only if you found the full number of left forearms for the entire site could you say it added to the total claimed. He then goes on to mention only parts of another part of the body, but never accounts if those separate parts could also be from one or both of the forearmed-boned found individuals, in his example.

So, if he finds parts of legbones and knows it is from two separate people (counting it as 2 people, as they would be), then is also counting the 2 left-forearm bones as 2 separate people (as indeed they would be), but one or both of the forearmed people could be matched with the sets of other bones, and in that way 2 people could become up to 4 in this case, and if they continue in that way they could multiply people more based on the number of fragments and bones.

[Hoplite]

You need to consider improving your reading comprehension skills.

[joan]

"This actually is more like the cases we've been dealing with, meaning fragments."

[Hoplite]

7   Right. This actually is more like the cases we've been
8   dealing with, meaning fragments. Let's just assume
9   again that we have two females that are from the same
10   side but are two different parts of the female. In
11   this one we got the top or proximal part of the bone
12   and the mid-part of the bone, and in this one we have
13   the mid-part and the bottom part, that is, the distal
14   part.
15   MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Baraybar, if I could just
16   interrupt you there. The witness is indicating, on
17   Exhibit 229, that in the left portion of the photograph
18   is the proximal portion of the femur, and in the
19   right-hand photograph, the distal portion of the right
20   femur.
21   Q. Please continue, sir.
22   A. Considering that we cannot actually fit these
23   two fragments and make one femur, we have to take again
24   a conservative approach and say that we assume that
25   these two fragments, although not fitting with one

Page 3795

1   another, represent one individual. That would be the
2   way we would construct a minimal number of
3   individuals. Otherwise, we could say that these are
4   two femurs. But we are taking it as only one.

Is this really too complicated for you to understand?

[joan]

But nonetheless if they found two left femurs and used that to say they are two separate people; along with the two left forearms, saying that they are from two separate people, they still haven't ruled out, by their methold, that the owners of the femurs could be the same as the forearms, or at least one. So, using pieces from selected body parts which don't match but can be concluded through that as different people, doesn't take into body parts from other areas which don't match each other.

Making things even more complicated is the fact that parts of one body can be in several termed "mass graves" - that's even mentioned in these articles sometimes.

The Muslims were notorious for cutting off parts of Serbs - the head was popular - but taking chopping off their hands, legs, arms, etc. was common. Serbs often found only parts of their freshly killed people. What the Muslims did with the Serbs' bodies and parts or what happened to them during the attack is sometimes unknown - but likely scattered around the area.

[joan]

These are a few examples of how the Srebrenica Muslims killed Serbs in the area and chopped off parts of their bodies - mainly their heads - which have never been found (and could be skulls now somewhere), but also other parts. One woman elderly woman, Bosa Cavic (1924), had both arms cut below the elbow. So, what if one of the left (or right) forearms possible found in the vicinity of Potocari was hers? Would the Muslims claim it as theirs? The Serbs never got those parts of her body back, so her bones could be counted as a separate person in the findings.

What happened to all the heads the Muslims took? Many Serbs had to be buried headless, armless, or missing some bones. Are they still in Bosnia, or were they sent to a Middle East country (there was said to be a market/desire for cut off heads in those places)?

On October 5, 1992, Moslem armed formations attacked the house of Sreten Djokic in the village of Divovici near Bratunac, and two days later the bodies of the people killed in Divovici were handed over to the Serbs. The body of Sreten Djokic was given without the head and the right arm. On the neck hung a patch of skin with hair from the top of his head. The head and the arm were never found and the body was buried without them. Proof: 37/94-6.

In clashes between Moslem armed forces and those of the Army of the Republic of Srpska on November 5,1992 in the area of Kamenica, the commune of Zvornik, the Moslems captured and killed by beheading Vlado Grabovica, Savo Djokic, Dragomir Bozic, Slavko Tijanic, Savo Kazanovic and Radomir Pavlovic. Dragomir Bozic was massacred and the head severed from the body. The head of Slavko Tijanic was found without the eyes, ears and nose, a 6 mm diameter iron bar was found in his chest, while his neck, hands and feet were tied with wire. The head of Savo Kazanovic had also been cut off, his chest pierced with a large nail, and he himself nailed to an oak tree and crucified. A head without the body was also found which is assumed to have belonged to Milos Grabovica.
The following were also killed in Kamenica on November 5,1992:
Miladin Asceric, 28 years old;
Mico Tesic, 24 years old and
Nikola Milinovic, 27
years old. They were also beheaded. Proof: 184/94-5, 184/95-6, 184/95-7 and 184/95-8.

On September 24,1992 Moslem forces occupied the village of Podravanje in the commune of Milici, set it to fire, looted it and killed all the wounded whom they found in the village. They killed 19 persons on that occasion and massacred their bodies. Zulfo Tursumovic from Suceska had the severely wounded Tomislav Perendic put his head in his (Tursumovic's) lap and then slaughtered him and cut his head off. Svetozar Jovanovic's head was cut off and impaled on a stake and Gojko Tomic was beheaded and his head thrown some 20 metres away from the body.

DESIGNATION OF CRIME: Deliberate killing of civilians.
PLACE AND TIME: The village of Potocani, end of May and beginning of June, 1992.
BRIEF DESCRIPTION: At the end of May, 1992, most probably on 25 or 26 May, in the village of Potocani, Muslim soldiers in "Green Beret" uniforms, under command of Semin Rustanpasic, killed the following Serbs:

1. Draga Cavic, of father Nedeljko, born in 1933,
2. Milenko Lukic.
At the beginning of June, the following persons were also killed in this village:
3. Ljubo Cavic, of father Ljubo, born in 1911, and his wife,
4. Bosa Cavic, of father Aleksa, born in 1924 - slaughtered in front of their house. A big cross was cut into Ljuba's chest. Bosa's throat was cut, both her breasts were cut off, her eyes were gouged out and her ears cut off. Both her arms were cut to the elbows.
5. Jelena Jovic, of father Milan, born in 1928. Her nose, ears and arms were cut off and her eyes were gouged.
6. Mara, from Kupres by birth, was slaughtered.
7. Radojka Prgomelja, of father Stanoje, born in 1944. Her right leg and nose were cut off, her eyes were gouged out and she was cut all over the body.
INDICATIONS CONCERNING PERPETRATOR:
1. Semin Rustanpasic, commander of the "Green Berets" unit, 2. Senad Bajric, 3-6. Eric, Corina, Rizvan and Durakovic, "Green Berets" soldiers.
EVIDENCE: Testimony by the witness 234/95-13.
Some of the war crimes that are reported to the UN and listed by the case and proof number. All Bosnian Muslim units were from Srebrenica's operational Muslim army group.

In an attack on the Serb village of Brezani, the commune of Srebrenica, on June 30, 1992, members of Moslem armed forces killed 19 serb villagers. The body of Milos Novakovic from the hamlet of Cicevac was found with the head cut off. Proof: 493/94-9, 493/94-5, 493/94-6, 493/94-7, 493/94-8 and 635/94-9.

Slavko Mladjenovic, (father Ljubomir), born in 1965, was killed on August 8, 1992 during an attack on the village of Jezestice, the commune of Bratunac. He was buried without the head which had been cut off and taken away. Proof: 68/94 and 635/94-28.

In an attack carried out on June 3,1992 on the village of Brezane, the commune of Srebrenica, Moslems killed Milivoje Mitrovic and Stanoje Mitrovic. When this village was liberated in April 1993 their headless bodies were found. Stanoje Mitrovic's throat had been slit by one "Kemo" from Pale. Proof: 635/94-9.
The Moslems killed the Serb Sredoje Jovanovic from Krnice by beheading him when they attacked this village on July 5, 1992. Proof: 493/94-13.

[Hoplite]

The whole point, Joan, is that only one bone or identifiable part of that bone is used to arrive at the Minimum Number of Individuals count for that mass grave site. Using two different parts defeats the purpose unless you've categorized the bones into sub-populations by sex and age, whereupon you can produce MNI counts for each category using different skeletal landmarks for each sub-population without fear of double counting for the entire population.

Here's an example of an exhumation (non-Srebrenica related) where the MNI of 298 was arrived at by using the right femur.

Further, the single Srebrenica related mass grave MNI counts have been amalgamated into a full Srebrenica related Mass Grave MNI count (MMNI), which stood at 2,541 in February of 2004.

Lastly, if you wish to believe that the Serbs commingled the remains of Serbian victims with those of the folks they were disposing of from their Srebrenica operation, well have at it. Nothing the Serbs do or you say surprises me much anymore.

[NYC Republican]

Thanks for the information.