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SUPREME COURT ISSUES STAY IN SAN DIEGO CROSS CASE - High court intervenes in fight over cross
AP ^ | 7/3/06 | TONI LOCY

Posted on 07/03/2006 11:36:51 AM PDT by Pukin Dog

Edited on 07/03/2006 12:00:01 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

The Supreme Court intervened Monday to save a large cross on city property in southern California.

A lower court judge had ordered the city of San Diego to remove the cross or be fined $5,000 a day.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, acting for the high court, issued a stay while supporters of the cross continue their legal fight.

Lawyers for San Diegans for the Mt. Soledad National War Memorial said in an appeal that they wanted to avoid the "destruction of this national treasure." And attorneys for the city said the cross was part of a broader memorial that was important to the community.

The 29-foot cross, on San Diego property, sits atop Mount Soledad. A judge declared it was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

The cross, which has been in place for decades, was contested by Philip Paulson, a Vietnam veteran and atheist.

Three years ago, the Supreme Court had refused to get involved in the long-running dispute between Paulson and the city.

Kennedy granted the stay to the city and the cross' supporters without comment pending a further order from him or the entire court.

The cross was dedicated in 1954 as a memorial to Korean War veterans, and a private association maintains a veterans memorial on the land surrounding it.

Mayor Jerry Sanders has argued that the cross, sitting atop Mt. Soledad in La Jolla, is an integral part of the memorial and deserves the same exemptions to government-maintained religious symbols as those granted to other war monuments.

In May, U.S. District Court Judge Gordon Thompson, Jr., ordered the city to take down the 29-foot cross before Aug. 2 or pay daily fines of $5,000.

Thompson's ruling, which he described as "long overdue," found the cross to be an unconstitutional display of government preference of one religion over another.

Last year, San Diego voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot proposition to transfer the land beneath the cross to the federal government. The measure was designed to absolve the city of responsibility for the cross under the existing lawsuit. But a California Superior Court judge found the proposition to be unconstitutional.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Culture/Society; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: aclu; aclucross; annoyedatheist; anthonykennedy; antitheist; atheistcrusader; atheistpaulson; christophobia; churchandstate; cross; enviousathiest; moralabsolutes; mtsoledad; sandiego; scotus; warmemorial
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To: verity; Pukin Dog
AND you got the "Dirty Atheists" part right. ;-)

I support the cross being there as I support the Ten Commandments being prominently displayed... and I am an atheist... just not a dirty one...

It is no coincidence Islamic pagans hate Israel, Jews, Christians and Western Civilization. The entire basis of Western Civilization is Mosaic Law, something both the Neo-Pagan Left and the pagan Islamic thugs cannot abide and wish to destroy.

The very idea that human beings have individual rights not subject to the whims of an earthly monarch, but subject to the laws of Yahweh, is directly from Moses.

Historically, this is proven over and over again with the successive conflicts between the forces of paganism and the Judaic culture. (This includes the idolatry of cultural Marxist paganism.)

A greater number of "atheists" and "pagans" adopt the same hackneyed tenets of a false Judaic-Christian ideal (golden calf). They also subscribe to the Judaic fetishism of "sin," but will fight to their death in denial of it. Most of them are so wrapped up in their own polemics that they have become nothing more than pathetic anti-Christians with the same false hypocritical philosophy. They just slap a new label on it hoping nobody will notice - - they replace the idea of "avoiding sin" with "morals."

Morality and all of its associated ideals are rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct in human behavior. Today, "morals" are a religious pagan philosophy of esoteric hobgoblins. Transfiguration is a pantheon of fantasies as the medium of infinitization. Others get derision for having an unwavering Judaic belief in Yahweh or Yeshua, although their critics and enemies will evangelize insertion of phantasmagoric fetishisms into secular law.

Mosaic Law (of which the Ten Commandments is just a part) is the foundation of Western Civilization. Genesis is the primary focus of the Declaration of Independence, from where our Constitutional rights are derived. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of our judicial system.

Moses wrote Genesis. This is why such people will jump up and down screaming when the Ten Commandments are displayed or the Creationist idea of monogamy from the book of Genesis is introduced.

The latter (Genesis) also ruins the illogical and non-biological arguments of homosexual monogamy. In a secular sense, homosexuality is an idolatry of perversion. It is in no way an anatomical function of the human organism, but a phantasmagoric creation from within the mentally disturbed human mind, a social psychosis, naked and on full exhibitionist display.

This is the whole crux (pun intended) of their attack on creationism - - they are really frustrated by Genesis, but cannot destroy the axiomatic state of procreant human biology, it does not fit their religious agenda.

Homosexual monogamy advocates seek ceremonious sanctification of their anatomical perversions and esoteric absolution for their guilt-ridden, impoverished egos.

Neither of those will satisfy their universal dissatisfaction with mortality or connect them to something eternal. With pantheons of fantasies as their medium of infinitization, they still have nothing in them of reality, any more than there is in the things that seem to stand before us in a dream.

Homosexual deviancy is really a pagan practice (and a self-induced social psychosis) at war with the Judaic culture over what is written in the book of Genesis (1:27, 2:18).

This is exactly what the National Socialists were at war with... so, when someone uses the terms "Gaystapo" and "Feminazi," they might not realize how close to the truth they really are. (Also, consider their eugenic breeding programs.)

Many will seek ceremonious sanctification and esoteric absolution in some type of marriage rite, but that still fails to give them a connection to the eternal in both a religious and temporal, procreant sense - - the union does not produce offspring.

Dissatisfaction with inevitable mortality only feeds the impoverishment of the ego further. Homosexuals really hate human life; their whole desire is rooted in the destruction of it.

Abortion is akin to slavery... life to be bought and sold...

Contemplate the religious fervor associated with the pro-abortion advocacy. The societal practice of abortion is ritual mass murder upon the altars of conceit dedicated to idolatrous vanities, a collective human sacrifice before pagan idols.

It has a similitude to the Teutonic paganism of Adolph Hitler (whose idolatry was the idea of a "master race," among other things). In effect, these genocides are a mass human sacrifice to those pagan idols. The abortionists, like the National Socialists, incinerate the remains of their victims.

Aleister Crowley, who openly supported the National Socialists, was affiliated with Ordo Templi Orientis, A.A. (Order of the Silver Star) and other such occult lodges all across Germany. Crowley engaged in all manner of deviancy, homoeroticism, sadomasochism and murder. Much of the occultism in National Socialism is derived directly from there. Crowley envisioned himself as the Great Beast (To Mega Therion), just as der Fuhrer made himself in that image. Hitler's life as a struggling, inept artist was where that association blossomed.

Crowley's creed, "Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the Law," (which is actually from Francois Rabelais) and used by Neo-Pagan nutcases without attribution for obvious politically correct reasons, is with certainty no different than the National Socialist "will to power," or their ubermensch mentality.

It is also no accident Nietzsche's "over-man" and nihilist philosophy and resulting insanity from venereal disease closely mirrors the insanity of der Fuhrer. These occult orders, sex and drug cults still survive today, as do the Neo-pagan, Neo-Nazi groups, black supremacist Rastafarian potheads, prison gangs and other related filth.

Crowley occultism is also from where L. Ron Hubbard emerges with Scientology. Note the NAZI symbolism of that kooky cult of weirdoes and their deviant adherents. Hollywood Cultural Marxists love Scientology.

Ah, Hollywood! The fountain of fantastical images, perverts and hypocrisies! It is by no accident the Cultural Marxists of Hollywood are flaming haters of America, Israel and Christendom, and who advocate the most bizarre and psychotic.

Germany cracked down hard on the Scientologists for that reason and because they are using similar mind control techniques...

Slapping the donkey...

Red, black, green and gold - - the colors from the Rastafarian religion, the woolen hats in the four Ethiopian colors, the shrines in those colors found in their yards and pictures of Haile Selassie... (A move by the Left to marginalize Ethiopian Jews?)

What you will not hear from these perpetual pro-marijuana masturbaters is that this “ganga” thing is related to the anti-caucasian and racist Rasafarian religion in Jamaica.

Their ideology is that white men are devils. Marcus Garvey in the early 1900's said an African King would become the black messiah. Ras Tafari was crowned King Haile Selassie of Ethiopia and proclaimed to be their messiah in 1930.

According to the Rastafarian pagans, Ras Tafari did not die in 1975, but went to another dimension. He is called “Jah” and considered to be a god. A pagan perversion of Christian theology.

Of course all of this lunacy is centered around smoking the ganga weed.

That is partly why these feminized males will defend pot smoking, drug abuse and deviant use of their anatomy and are not safe to have around children...

A great post...

To: Sir Francis Dashwood

Without touching on their use of MJ, the rastaferians ALSO pointed Haile being the last "Lion of Judah". It is noteworthy that there's a Biblical prophecy that when the last LOJ goes down, Ethiopia turns into a desert.

And, when Haile went down, the Northern core of the country was turned into a desert by its new Communist masters.

131 posted on 11/28/2005 6:04:36 PM PST by muawiyah (u)

Kwanzaa... just another cultural Marxism like the Rastafarian pothead religion...

Now, look a Tookie's Rastafarian hairstyle and tell me if he is not considered a prince of among the New Age Neo-pagan idolators just like Mumia Abu Jamal...

Another source of amazement is the concept of those who hold candlelight vigils (yet another example of religious ceremony) for heinous murderers about to be executed, a large number of whom think it is acceptable to murder an unborn child without the benefit of a trial. Is the “right to life” of one responsible for much murder and mayhem more important than that of a truly innocent unborn child?

Perhaps we should call capital punishment “post-natal abortion” and identify abortion as a “pre-natal death sentence” or “pre-natal summary execution.”

Another example is Michael Jackson. With the undying support of his “fans” (or fanatics) in the face of his more than questionable activities concerning the abuse of children, they still hold him up as an idol. Jackson, both in his family life as a child and his adult life, is a modern extension of pedagogical pagan pedophilia of previous ages in ancient civilizations. Look at the macabre pagan elements of Jackson's video, Thriller. Michael Jackson now resides in Bahrain... coincidence?

Michael Jackson had Nation of Islam thugs as bodyguards escorting him after court appearances through the throngs of frenzied supporters. Is Jackson their new pharaoh? Nation of Islam is a militant racist cult. Their leaders, Louis Farrakhan (the numerologist) and Kahlid Abdul Mohammed, are known Jew haters. They also support many illogical and socially subversive Leftist political activities intent on tearing down the structures of Modern Western Civilization and capitalism. Why did they shower Tookie Williams with so much adoration?

There is a clear connection between modern neo-paganism and ancient paganism related to Islamic conflict with the Judaic roots of Christendom. A focus on how this is manifested in a modern sense only requires a look at pop-culture icons in entertainment, sports “heroes,” and attempts by the Left to use a pseudo-Christian sense of pagan moralistic idolatry to demonize political opposition. I present to you the attack on U.S. Senator Rick Santorum for his comments on sodomy as a useful example. A Sacred Cow, a golden calf.

Is it coincidence that many domestic social issues are being driven by cultic Leftist advocacy of unnatural, phantasmagoric perversity?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If you want to be added to this list, please notify me...

Originally, the Nuclear Option Ping List started out as a practical joke. With all the vitriolic response I received from certain un-named individuals, I figured it would be a great idea to do it for real...

I have observed here on Free Republic, a never ending flaming of religious folks and conservatives by people who promote things such as drug abuse, homosexuality, the ritual murder of abortion and other garbage.

Not being an orthodox or ecumenical atheist, it has really stretched my patience. I do not think policemen are jack-booted thugs, nor do I look at people who want to protect their families from filthy scum as brownshirts.

The purpose of this is to alert people to the cultural Marxism run amok... Drugs, sex perverts, pornography (in film and in music), marijuana, liquor, bashing the religious people, destroying social institutions (like marriage and the Boy Scouts), etc., etc.,... ad nausea...

The druggies like the sex perverts can only perpetuate an ever increasing market for their filth by molesting the minds and bodies of the young ones... this is the only way they get new Demo-rat voters... CHEMICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE!

Observing this as an atheist, I prefer the paradigm of a Judaic culture to the chaotic death cult of New Age neo-pagan absurdity.

The traditions of Greek tragedy as in Oedipus Rex are based upon the religious traditions of the Greeks - - the idea of destiny or a pre-ordained fate subject to the whims of the gods.

Socrates saw that fallacy in Plato’s Euthyphro, when he asked Euthyphro what was pleasing to the gods, and how could someone be pious to the gods when they all wanted something different from the others. It made no sense to observe the divinity of one god and ignore the demands of another god. How could a person know what it was to be in accordance with the will of the gods in this respect?

The origins of drama come from the esoteric ideals directly related to religion. Religious ritual is psychodrama designed to conjure up images in the mind of the viewers and/or participants. This is illustrated no better than by the Greek traditions of using masks in their plays.

The actor can hide himself behind the illusion of a character’s mask, the audience can focus not on the actor, but on the image of the character represented - - one form of idolatry, among others in pagan Greek polytheism.

The Greeks were idolaters and were pagans. The images in their drama were a representation of something. What did Oedipus represent?

To the pagan Egyptians, the pharaohs were gods. Gods had their own special privileges of divinity. The pagan Egyptians had their own pantheon of gods like the pagan Greeks, several of which the Greeks adopted. (Set and Typhon are convenient examples.)

The pagan Egyptians were also idolaters like the Greeks; their temples, architecture and art are replete with sacred idols. They both practiced human sacrifice. (These practices extended to the pagan Romans as well.) Is Oedipus representative of the pharaoh Akhnaton?

One of Sigmund Freud’s earlier followers, Karl Abraham, contributed an essay to the first volume of Imago, published by Freud in 1912, entitled Amenhotep IV (Akhnaton). This was of interest in that the essay talks about how Akhnaton did not entomb his mother Tiy next to her husband after her death and that Akhnaton’s rivalry with his father for possession of his mother extended beyond death.

Dr. Velikovsky has many critics, but his assertions are most profound. There appears to be a particular level of viciousness directed toward Velikovsky from many Egyptologists. Like Akhnaton, Velikovsky is reviled for tearing down some idolatries of previously accepted thinking. Examinations of reaction concerning his other books (Peoples of the Sea and Ages in Chaos) are ample evidence of this in such historical and literary circles of research. I attribute much of this to the ancient conflict between the pagan and the Judaic that still rages (even from within Judaism itself, see the Steven Plaut article: The Rise Of Tikkun Olam Paganism) although the pagan civilizations of Greece and Egypt are long since dead.

This conflict was represented by Othello, Death of a Salesman, and many other places in art, literature and science. Here with Oedipus, it is also represented in the modern arguments over historical chronology, pagan idolatry of the Greeks and Egyptians, along with modern idolatries commonly found in both domestic and international politics.

The Sun and Bacchus are Apollo and Dionysus, two gods, or two aspects of religious experience from the ancient Greeks, and their juxtaposition is of some importance - - a statement of belief in the duality of human nature, symbolized by Apollo as the light of reason, and Dionysus as the underground power of emotion (see Camille Paglia's Sexual Personae).

Egyptians worshipped Harpocrates, the god of silence; for which reason he is always pictured holding a finger on his mouth. Athenians had a statue of brass, which they bowed to; a figure made without a tongue, to declare secrecy thereby. The Romans had a goddess of silence called Angerona, which was pictured like Harpocrates, holding her finger on her mouth, in token of secrecy.

There is an occult nature to certain politics and this progression of culture (ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome and the modern iconographic idolatry of Marxist paganism) can easily be illustrated, but is most often ignored or rejected for reasons of political expediency, like the aforementioned pagan idolatries of secrecy and silence. The use of such religion is essential for many aspects of political power over the ignorant, unwashed masses. It is no surprise that Akhnaton's monotheistic approach was completely and abruptly destroyed by the successive generation, restoring the pantheistic idolatries of previous pharaohs. This phenomenon is not historically isolated and is played out in a myriad of instances today.

Plato’s Apology is a drama that portrays the current Left wing frustration with talk radio in America. The people of Athens (the Left) are demanding that Socrates (Rush) be silent. Socrates refuses and the elite of Athens demand the execution of Socrates. The modern Left wants a figurative execution of Rush Limbaugh and others like him (although ‘figurative’ would quickly become tangible, if the Left ever had the unchecked power they desire, just as it was with Socrates). In terms of this ‘figurative execution’, the cancellation of the Michael Savage and Dr. Laura Schlessinger television shows are perfect examples!

Try an experiment. The next time you are confronted by a neo-pagan, New Age animal rights eco-fascist who claims humans were not "designed" or "meant" to eat animal flesh, ask them about the origin of their creationist philosophy. Inherent in such a claim is the idea that there is a "designer" or some divinity of "meaning" in human existence. Would they apply this to abortion, embryonic stem cells, or homosexuality? No?

121 posted on 07/03/2006 2:59:13 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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Comment #122 Removed by Moderator

To: Pukin Dog
SCHADEN-FROG ! ! !

RIBBIT, RIBBIT RIBBIT !!!

Leni

123 posted on 07/03/2006 3:05:07 PM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: Pukin Dog

Good Dog. Thanks for the post.

As for the stay, glad to hear that the tyranny of the minority has not yet trumped simple, majority rule. I thought the People ruled this country. Silly me.


124 posted on 07/03/2006 3:29:11 PM PDT by combat_boots (Dug in and not budging an inch. NOT to be schiavoed, greered, or felosed as a patient)
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To: digger48

That graveyard is beautiful, and, overwhelming.


125 posted on 07/03/2006 3:34:53 PM PDT by combat_boots (Dug in and not budging an inch. NOT to be schiavoed, greered, or felosed as a patient)
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To: SmithL
"The DUmmies are ready to hitch a tow-truck to it and pull it down."

That would be extremely provocative...
Like striking a match in a fireworks factory.

They wouldn't survive the event...

Semper Fi

126 posted on 07/03/2006 3:47:47 PM PDT by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Ready4Freddy
The Federal Government just issued their policy on Eminent Domain.

I hope SCOTUS gets this right or we'll be ripping down every Cross across the country. That cross does not establish a national religion AND it is for a particular purpose....honoring our soldiers.

Pretty soon, we'll be asking our priests to remove their collars.

Not for nothing, but atheism appears to be nothing but a total disregard for the "ideas" of others.

I think it was John Adams who said: IMOW....That's their problem!!

127 posted on 07/03/2006 3:49:41 PM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Pukin Dog
A lower court judge had ordered the city of San Diego to remove the cross or be fined $5,000 a day.

Why does the City of San Diego even care? Keep the cross and ignore the fine. Federal judges have ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY over the states over matters of religion or religious expression. NONE.

It is well past time for the Mayor of San Diego and Governor of California to state this simple Constitutional fact at a press conference, and thus give the public a needed civics lesson.

128 posted on 07/03/2006 3:54:54 PM PDT by montag813
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To: Pukin Dog

It turns out that they are compelling San Diego to change its name to Mr. Diego, as the San violates the Establishment clause.


129 posted on 07/03/2006 4:03:00 PM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (Being That Guy so you do have to.)
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To: montag813
The city cares because it is broke, broke, BROKE! They cant afford even the potential of paying fines.
130 posted on 07/03/2006 4:04:02 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: HonestConservative
I just can't imagine anything more senseless or useless than tearing down that beautiful cross.

This matter needs more attention as I'm certain the American public would never get behind this.

131 posted on 07/03/2006 4:08:39 PM PDT by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
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To: Pukin Dog

My DIL is part of a group that plans to surround this cross if they try to take it down. I'm keeping a little saved for bail:')


132 posted on 07/03/2006 4:08:39 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Halls

But the stay does mean something in this case. The judge in this case stipulated if the cross was not taken down by Aug. 2 they would be charged $5,000 per day for as long as it remained up.


133 posted on 07/03/2006 4:12:29 PM PDT by conservative blonde (Conservative Blonde)
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To: Pukin Dog
The cross, which has been in place for decades, was contested by Philip Paulson, a Vietnam veteran and atheist.

No mention of Phil being a dickhead?

Or does that go without saying?

134 posted on 07/03/2006 4:18:45 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: All

Just to reiterate, I received this from the ACLJ (not to be confused with the aclu) via email....

American Center for Law and Justice
MONDAY, JULY 03, 2006


ACLJ CALLS SUPREME COURT ACTION KEEPING MT. SOLEDAD CROSS IN PLACE "MAJOR VICTORY"
FOR SAN DIEGO

WASHINGTON, July 3, 2006--The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) called
today's action by the Supreme Court halting the removal of the Mt. Soledad cross
while legal appeals proceed a "major victory" for San Diego and the hundreds of
thousands of Americans across the nation who support the war memorial. Justice
Anthony Kennedy today granted a stay halting the court-ordered removal of the cross.
The ACLJ, representing 22 members of Congress, filed an amicus brief with the high
court supporting the City of San Diego's request for the Supreme Court to intervene
in the case and arguing that the stay should be granted.

"This is a major victory for the City of San Diego and the hundreds of thousands of
people across America who support this long-standing war memorial," said Jay
Sekulow, Chief Counsel of the ACLJ.

"We're extremely pleased the Justice Kennedy understood the importance of issuing a
stay in this case. We're delighted that the Mt. Soledad cross will remain in place
while this case is fully litigated," continued Sekulow. "This action by the high
court sends a powerful message to the lower courts that a removal order was
premature that there are critical legal issues that need to be litigated before any
action can be taken to remove this cross. This important legal development will not
only keep the cross in place, but will energize the legal battle ahead to preserve
this cross. It's our hope that San Diego ultimately will succeed in the appeals
process and we remain committed to standing with them and supporting the legal
effort every step of the way. This case is far from over."

In its friend-of-the-court brief filed with the high court, the ACLJ successfully
argued: "A stay should be granted because the federal and California appellate
courts should be allowed to decide the important constitutional issues raised in
this case."

The ACLJ also argued that the federal district court's order squarely conflicts with
an act of Congress that instructed the Secretary of the Interior to accept the Mt.
Soledad cross offered by the city.

The ACLJ represents 22 members of Congress including numerous military veterans and
the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. Duncan Hunter of
California. In addition to Hunter, the other members of the U.S. House of
Representatives who have signed onto the brief are: Todd Akin, Gresham Barrett, Eric
Cantor, Michael Conaway, Barbara Cubin, John Culberson, Phil Gingery, Gil Gutknecht,
Jack Kingston, John Kline, Kenny Marchant, Patrick McHenry, Mike McIntyre, Gary
Miller, Marilyn Musgrave, Randy Neugebauer, Joseph Pitts, Jim Ryun, Todd Tiahrt,
Dave Weldon, and Lynn Westmoreland.

Sekulow says the ACLJ will continue to file legal briefs as the appeals process
moves forward and will continue to work to support the City of San Diego's efforts
to keep the Mt. Soledad cross in place.

In addition to the brief, the ACLJ has heard from more than 170,000 Americans
including nearly 30,000 Californians who have signed onto the ACLJ's national
petition urging officials to preserve the memorial.

aclj.org


135 posted on 07/03/2006 4:27:54 PM PDT by Sun (Hillary had a D-/F rating on immigration; now she wants to build a wall????)
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To: Lurker

You can pretty much count on the fact that Kennedy will now make any decision that will get him the most attention possible.


136 posted on 07/03/2006 4:28:47 PM PDT by AmishDude (First Supreme Emperor of the NAU!)
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To: demitall

They are not atheists as much as they are christophobics. They need valium.


137 posted on 07/03/2006 4:31:29 PM PDT by TaxRelief (Wal-Mart: Keeping my family on-budget since 1993.)
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To: Sun

I found this beautiful photo of the cross on a starry night:

http://www.shanejmontgomery.com/photos/cross.JPG


138 posted on 07/03/2006 4:33:54 PM PDT by Deo volente
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To: Congressman Billybob

I don't understand how any of these folks have standing. Were they denied any right, privilege, protection, immunity, or benefit?

Government and society are two separate and distinct things, and each have their role. But they ARE NOT the same.

No harm, no foul.


139 posted on 07/03/2006 4:34:03 PM PDT by djf (I'm not Islamophobic. But I am bombophobic. Same thing, I guess...)
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To: Deo volente

That is a great photo of the cross.


140 posted on 07/03/2006 4:41:43 PM PDT by Norman Arbuthnot
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