Posted on 06/22/2006 8:43:39 AM PDT by canuck_conservative
Editor's note: On the evening of July 17, 1996, at 8:19 p.m., TWA Flight 800, a Boeing 747, took off from Kennedy Airport, bound for Paris. At 8:31 p.m., over 730 people watched Flight 800 explode, killing all 230 of the people aboard.
Not long afterwards, millions of Americans watched their televisions in fascinated horror as search and rescue crews looked for survivors among the flaming debris. Only dead bodies were recovered.
Flight 800 is mostly an ugly memory for people these days. The U.S. government issued an explanation that a fuel tank had somehow exploded. Yet, they flatly denied any evidence existed of foul play, including the possibility that Flight 800 had been blown out of the air by a missile.
All but a few journalists accepted the government's version of events. Few bothered to investigate the numerous eyewitnesses, the radar records and the physical evidence that all suggested a strikingly different explanation of Flight 800's untimely demise. And those few who did question the government's version were made to look like fools or, worse, thrown in jail and prosecuted as criminals for meddling in an official investigation.
What really happened to Flight 800? ....
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
I suggest starting with no assmption that there was not a cover-up. Then go to the raw data of eyewitnesses who were close to the accident scene. I'll take a look at this, but I'll bet that the 38 people who saw a missile or flare were closer than average to the accident site (that's why they saw it.) Also, look critically at the behavior of government agencies and do not assume they were not engaged in a cover-up. I'll take a longer look at this and get back to you. Based on what we know for sure, I don't think any theory can be ruled out. We can only assign probabilities to a few different explanations for this accident. I suggest that you not assume that material from government agencies is true, complete, and accurate.
This...
"You try to win by insults. You said so in a post."
is not even remotely supported by this...
"I am a big advocate of the "beat them into submission" school of diplomacy."
I see. Now, enforcing the law is a BIG sign of a cover-up. Makes as much sense as the rest of your logic.
Rokke..........what do you think you're beating people with? Kisses?
And you would not expect them to find the "cause", when the damning criminal evidence has been removed from this investigation.
Get over it, you really know what happened to it, look at your hostile behavior anytime I mention the foreign missile pellets....it is DRIVING YOU CRAZY!
Ray Lahr is going to blow this silly charade out of the water, and then I guess we won't see anymore of you?
I haven't tried that. But facts don't seem to be working lately either.
Cornell Law School, U.S.Code Collection
TITLE 49 > SUBTITLE II > CHAPTER 11 > SUBCHAPTER III > § 1132
§ 1132. Civil aircraft accident investigations
(a) General Authority.—
(2) A person employed under section 1113 (b)(1) of this title that is conducting an investigation or hearing about an aircraft accident has the same authority to conduct the investigation or hearing as the Board.
Terrell Stacy was one of the investigators.
And there are more Freepers that saw that video. There are mentions of it on the threads from 99 too. I read those old threads that I posted and found them interesting.
Then why wasn't your buddy Kalstrom arrested for removing material?
What on god's green earth is wrong with Stacey(member NTSB) smelling a "rat" and dispensing an ounce of fabric to a journalist, possibly revealing to the dear public that they had been attacked???
Sure he "broke" a minor law, but in the process, he blows the whistle, alerting the country of dire peril.
Do you have a problem with that?
I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow and HAVE to get some sleep. Good Night! :)
And Rokke...........Kisses!
Are you sure you are not Jim Hall? I find myself laughing at your posts because you sound EXACTLY like him.
You raise a valid point, so let me give you a little background. I hadn't thought much about TWA 800 a few years after it happened until I read a thread on this site posted by Micheal Rivero. In it, he claimed TWA 800 was shot down by the US Navy. Based on my experience, that didn't seem logical, so I started looking into the matter. I am a person who doesn't like to read other people's analysis if I can read source data on my own. So I did. Since the NTSB report is the source document in dispute, I read that first. All of it. Then I read information from various "independent research" sites. Time and again, I found them claiming the NTSB report said things it didn't say, or didn't say things that it did. And their information on things that I was an expert on, was typically way off. Five years later, I've heard and seen it all, and the conspiracy evidence just gets weaker and weaker.
I don't automatically assume material from government agencies is true. I really don't. But because of my background, I am a literal expert on much of what is bounced back and forth in conspiracy theories surrounding TWA 800. I have witnessed missile launches of all types from the air and ground. My life depended on knowing their capabilities. I know how they work, why they work and where they work. I've witnessed their effects. And when I read "proof" on conspiracy sites that runs counter to reality, it isn't hard to dismiss their theories.
As a commercial pilot, I have some insight into all the things that can go wrong on large, hardworking, commercial aircraft. I read about "one time" malfunctions all the time. Often times, "one time" means "the first time" as parts get older. On the airplane I currently fly, we have an entire section of our emergency procedures added as a result of data gathered during the TWA 800 incident. And again, when I read information on conspiracy sites that runs counter to reality I am living, it isn't hard to dismiss them
For these conspiracy nuts to have any conceivable chance of being correct, you would have to have the following people/groups involved in the conspiracy/coverup:
1. NTSB (several members),
2. FBI (several members up to the highest levels),
3. CIA (several members),
4. FAA (lots of people),
5. U.S. Navy (several members),
6. U.S. Coast Guard (several members),
7. Pentagon (lots of people here),
8. Boeing Aircraft Company--since they were liable (literally hundreds to include safety experts, enginneers, mechanics, electricians, and all levels of management to the top),
9. Virtually all airline managements that fly Boeing equipment (hundreds here involved in the conspiracy too--as all Boeing commercial aircraft have complied with Airworthiness Directives to minimize the possibility of another fuel tank explosion by rewiring, shrouding and changing every day checklist procedures). The airlines have spent millions in the conspiracy without publicly complaining--by making the changes mentioned just to keep the 'truth' from becoming public (rolling eyes),
10. Pilots' unions must be in on the conspiracy too--because they have accepted the conclusions of the NTSB and operate the new checklist procedures as a result---with no demand for a reopening of the investigation,
11. All politicians (democrat AND REPUBLICAN) must also be in on the conspiracy because there is no movement whatsoever to reopen the investigation (probably because they know they would be laughed out of town).
The best part of the conspiracy, though, is how BOTH democrats AND REPUBLICANS--liberals AND conservatives--have ALL agreed to keep it quiet! "Psssst---pass it on, we're going to cover this one up! Yep, great idea--psssst--pass it on"!
You can't get TWO people to keep a secret these days--much less the hundreds listed above. There are probably more involved in the conspiracy than I listed above--but I'm approaching my self-imposed two minute time limit. Oh well,,,,at least this gives the conspiracy nuts something to pass their time with.
When did he remove it?
"Sure he "broke" a minor law"
He committed a felony, and his guess was wrong.
The thing about a missile or a bomb taking down an aircraft is that it leaves loads of irrefutable evidence. Evidence that can't be covered up.
Aren't you making a 'straw man' assumption that if a missile exploded, it was outside the aircraft?
In my opinion, the whole missile theory is a straw man.
How coy. It's evident you can't answer the question, because it is indeed a straw man assumption on your part.
It doesn't matter where it exploded.
How amusing, and how pitiful. -- Now you are 'begging' the entire question of this thread.
Kind of like killing someone at close range with a shotgun blast. There are thousands of pieces of easily identifiable shrapnel from the weapon itself that leave thousands of easily identifiable holes all over the target they strike. Those holes usually contain microscopic or larger traces of whatever made them.
And if it exploded inside? -- Say inside the center fuel tank?
Then it got there without leaving a trace, and it exploded without leaving a trace. You realize the center wing tank is actually divided into 4 separate chambers by aluminum "walls". Almost all of it was recovered. None of it showed evidence of a warhead detonation.
Nonsensical comment. You claim the center tank exploded.. It had to show 'evidence of a detonation'.
But in the case of TWA 800, what you have is a body that's been badly mangled but reconstructed until it is 95% whole. There is no evidence of anything resembling a shotgun blast to that body,
Which only rules out an external explosion, correct?
Only if you think an internal explosion wouldn't be even more messy.
I agree. -- If a missile exploded internally, in the fuel tank, it would make a mess of the tank, just as a fuel explosion would make a mess of the tank.
but a group of people who have no experience with shotguns or their effects on the human body, want to claim the body was killed by a shotgun.
Another 'straw man' type argument. You claim an external explosion, not me.
No one is disputing that a shotgun can kill people. But it simply can't without leaving a trace of evidence.
True enough. there is still an entrance wound, even if the the shot charge hasn't expanded to "thousands" of fragments.
The same is true, in my opinion of the video that you and others believe they saw. A video like that is something that couldn't disappear without a trace or even a mention in the MSM.
It was mentioned a ~lot~ outside the MSM, -- on the web & radio, if memory serves.
You believe you watched it, and I believe that is what you believe.
Big of you. - I believe you sincerely believe the government version of events.
- Isn't it nice that we patronize one another? Kumbya.
And if that is true, so did millions and millions of people up and down the East Coast.
Millions? - Hype. -- The tape was shown briefly, late at night on one network feed, as I recall. I'd guess that thousands saw it, not millions.
You said the tape was played repeatedly for half an hour.
Not true, -- I saw it repeated several times max.
And does your local NBC affiliate only cover a small town?
Wasn't local. -- It was an MSNBC feed .
If so, how did they possibly win the bidding war for the tape described in the article you linked about the tape?
Money talks, last I heard.
That includes competing media outlets all up and down the East Coast. Yet, the only mention anyone can find about such a video is an article by one of the leading TWA 800 conspiracy theorists in the world, who claims the video was never shown on television. So those of us who never saw the video are left with a choice of options.
Yep, you can believe that thousands of TV viewers, and hundreds of eyewitnesses spontaneously dreamed up a streak of light rising from the horizon before the explosion.
Where do you get your numbers?
Same place you get yours.
We can believe the TWA 800 "Zapruder Film" [telling derisionary comment] marks the first time in history, that every media source successfully conspired together to hide and deny evidence so startling people like you can never forget it, or we can believe that maybe the video wasn't quite what you remember it as.
And, we who can't believe our lying eyes can believe you folks insincerely pander to the government version of events in order to be politically correct.
- Isn't it nice that we patronize one another? Kumbya.
Regardless, folks like tpaine recall it strongly enough to remember where the camera was positioned with respect to the guests at the party. And that it was a stationary camera. And he says it did not show a streak of light hitting TWA 800. It didn't even show TWA 800. It showed a streak of light followed by a large flash.
Yep, that's what I, and thousands of others saw on the tape. And its corroborated by hundreds of eyewitnesses.
Both groups of which are remarkably silent as there isn't evidence to support either of your claims.
Hundreds of eyewitnesses are a fact. Are you denying that the FBI interviewed hundreds? Many of whom saw a streak?
TWA 800 did not explode into a fireball until 41 seconds after the initial event that caused its demise.
Does this mean there was no 'large flash' from the "initial event", the supposed fuel tank explosion?
Yes. Remember that the fuel tank only contained a very small amount of fuel and fuel vapor.
Yet this "small amount" that blew off the entire nose of the aircraft did not cause a large flash? -- Weird theory.
So unless the video ran for the length of time a missile would be in flight (around 15 seconds)
Well, at least you're finally admitting the time line for the tape is possible.
So, was the tape a minute long?
Another weird question, as you know I said it wasn't.
plus the 41 seconds from the first event until the fireball, then there is no telling what the video was of.
The tape ended with the initial large flash and people running to the rail pointing above.
Okay. Pointing how high?
To heaven of course. --- You really enjoy making silly comments, don't you?
Do you recall if there was a time and date stamp on the video?
None that I saw.
And finally, the link you provided regarding the witness study is an article based entirely on evidenced provided by the NTSB in its accident report. Have you read the report? It might save you a lot of internet search time. It is very comprehensive.
The Warren Report was also a very "comprehensive" refutation of what our lying eyes saw in the Zapruder Film..
Thanks for bringing up the subject of government report credibility.
I will fly with you any time.
Few people who don't believe it have actually read it. Where is the logic in that? Have you?
"And Rokke...........Kisses!"
And same to you. Really.
I love guys like you, you are the type we trick into bringing ordnance over to the light so we can take a look at it.
Couldn't pick him from a two man line up.
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