30 rebels attacked slain U.S. troops in Iraq-witness

Reuters ^ | 6/21/06

[TexKat]

YUSUFIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Two slain U.S. soldiers who went missing south of Baghdad were ambushed by as many as 30 insurgents who closed in on them in vehicles and opened fire, according to people who said on Wednesday they were witnesses.

It was not possible to independently verify their accounts. The U.S. military has yet to explain how the soldiers may have been isolated in what Iraqis call "The Triangle of Death" for its frequent insurgent attacks.

But two Iraqis who said they were witnesses gave similar accounts of the moments when Privates First Class Thomas Lowell Tucker, 25, and Kristian Menchaca, 23, went missing in the al Qaeda stronghold of Yusufiya, south of Baghdad, on Friday.

They said the two soldiers and a driver fell back a few hundred metres behind two other military vehicles when they came under attack at dusk.

"There was one vehicle in the back of the convoy. It was very dusty. Suddenly these gunmen in Land Cruisers and Toyotas and other cars started firing at the soldiers," recalled farmer Omar Abdullah, 49, who said he was some 200 metres (yards) away.

"A lot of dust was kicked up by the cars so the soldiers in the other cars probably could not see. The gunmen killed the driver. Eventually the other two soldiers were totally outnumbered and they were taken away."

He said about 30 gunmen, some wearing ski masks and baggy black pants and others in white and red checkered headdresses, mounted the ambush.

Chief U.S. military spokesman Major General William Caldwell said there was reason to believe two bodies found in the Yusufiya area on Monday night were those of Tucker and Menchaca.

Muhammad Abu Hillal, a soft drinks vendor who also said he was in the area, said a woman was killed in an exchange of fire between the insurgents and the soldiers.

"There were many gunmen. One vehicle was isolated and there was lots of shooting. There was dust everywhere," he said.

The Mujahideen Shura Council has said it abducted the two soldiers but it has offered no proof and Caldwell dismissed the claim.

Residents say the group was highly active in the rural area, terrorising families and forcing them to flee.

[nascarnation]

time for Vlad the Impaler rules of engagement......

[taxed2death]

"Many tribes were connoisseurs of torture before the white man came."

C'mon now...be fair. :)

1. Spanish Inquisition.
2. Ever see the movie "Braveheart"?
3. The term "drawn and quartered"....definitely a white guy way to torture someone. LOL.
5. Let us not forget it was a Froggie who first scalped an American Indian.

White guys make the best torturers. :)

We're not too bad at being serial killers either.

[rockthecasbah]

"So what do they say when torture OBVIOUSLY occurs? How do they react when two U.S. servicemen — in -approved uniforms — have their hearts cut out, their testicles cut off, their penises cut off and stuffed in their mouths, arms contorted and eyes gouged? THIS is torture."

This is a quote from E.D. Hill on another thread. I've no corroboration of this, but if true, it should galvanize anybody on our side to destroy the enemy without any reservation.

[StarCMC]

Where the heck were these witnesses BEFORE the bodies were found??

[DCPatriot]

"...recalled farmer Omar Abdullah, 49, who said he was some 200 metres (yards) away.

...you mean the soon-to-be late Omar Abdullah...

[BritExPatInFla]

It is a War Crime according to the Geneva Convention to fail to wear identifiable uniforms. That's a silly observation to make. If some foreign country invaded my neighborhood today, I don't even own an "identifiable uniform" to wear while I sniped at them from my bedroom window. Would the Geneva Convention find it more acceptable for me to wear my hockey team's colors than my pajamas? I'd also point out that under these standards it would also be a "war crime" for the U.S. to have private security contractors operating in a place like Iraq. I'm sure those guys aren't dressed like the typical security guard at an office building in New York or Chicago.

Even better yet, judging by the same standards that Bush used to put the terrorists in Gitmo, you would probably be considered an enemy combatant, not a POW if taken ito custody, and therefore not subject to he Geneva convention's protections (Unless your captors decided to abide by it voluntarily, as GWB did). Why in the hell didn't Bush simply go to congress for a REAL declaration of war, we could lock these animals up & keep 'em as POWs as long as necessary? Instead all we have to fall back on is that damn 'authorizaton to enforce the UN resolution'. A war declaration would have made things a hell of a lot easier in prosecuting the 'War' on Terror.

[ordinaryguy]

for assigning only two soldiers, without backup, in an area where terrorists were known to be present in force.

That was my impression at first too, but apparently there were around a dozen soldiers there at the time of the attack, and the three became separated. The article sort of alludes to that, but isn't really well written. If I have any of the detail wrong, someone else can chime in. I'm still unclear on much of it, and don't know whether an official version has been released.

[StarCMC]

There are rules as to whom the Geneva convention applies. The insurgents are not among those covered for more than one reason. Read it here.

The appropriate portion is here (emphasis mine):

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

[Alberta's Child]

Great post.

Bush couldn't go to Congress for a real declaration of war because the U.S. hasn't waged war to defeat and destroy its enemies in 60 years. When you're waging war to build an empire, destroying things is actually counter-productive.

[vigilante2]

your probably right because I can't understand why they wouldn't go down fighting

[ordinaryguy]

There are rules as to whom the Geneva convention applies. The insurgents are not among those covered for more than one reason.

The quoted article defines the term "Prisoner of war". I'm not finding any language in that article which declares the absence of uniforms to be a war crime.

Given that the excerpt is part of the 'Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War', I wouldn't expect it touch upon that topic.

[piasa]

Under Geneva to be considered a lawful combatant- either civilian militia or military, you must wear a uniform OR identifiable insignia, or be carrying arms openly to set yourself apart from unarmed civilians.

He left out the carrying arms openly part.

"Insurgents" as in Iraq tend to hide their weapons behind clothing or other objects so as to appear as unarmed civilians until such a time as they spring their traps; they deliberately select firing positions from within crowds of unarmed people of all sexes and ages so as to prevent themselves from standing out in a crowd. Or they simply hide their bombs in objects designed to look civilian. They don't put their insignia or other identifying marks on car bombs.

US civilian contractors carry their arms openly, do not select firing positions inside crowds of civilians for their ambushes, and do not use civilians to protect themselves by taking advantage of the enemy's reluctance to kill civilians.

The last one is a no-brainer since none of our enemies have any reluctance to kill civilians.

Citizen militias are expected to carry arms openly and not fire from beneath the skirts of women or from inside schools and churches and mosques simultaneously occupied by noncombatants. Even if uniforms are unavailable they are legitmate combatants so long as weapons are carried openly.

[Alberta's Child]

I can tell you from my own first-hand knowledge that some number of "U.S. security contractors" operating in both Afghanistan and Iraq would not be considered lawful combatants, either.

[Alberta's Child]

I would guess that given the known danger in the area that these soldiers were in, that some some lower ranking officer such as a lieutenant, is in a lot of trouble right now for assigning only two soldiers, without backup, in an area where terrorists were known to be present in force. Such a deployment borders on stupidity or negligence or both.

So does a deployment of only 130,000 troops to occupy a hostile nation the size of California populated by 30+ million people. Which "officer" in the U.S. military is in a lot of trouble right now for making that decision?

[conservativewasp]

Something went very wrong, seems either these men were left hanging without proper support, which lays the blame on commanders, or these guys got left behind in an ambush and it wasn't realized in time, also the commanders fault.

[TexKat]

1. Ambulances, military hospitals, and the personnel serving with them are to be recognized as neutral and protected during conflict.

"They have stolen a lot of ambulances," he said, sitting at his desk between two fake plastic trees. Just the other day insurgents used an ambulance to bomb a wedding party south of Baghdad, killing at least seven people.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:-_S9hIjywTwJ:www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woelec0129,0,4569368.story%3Fcoll%3Dny-worldnews-toputility+insurgents+used+ambulance+iraq&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

2. Wounded or sick combatants are to be collected and cared for by either side in a conflict.

WASHINGTON, March 28, 2003 -- Two wounded American fighting men yesterday described their experiences in Iraq to interviewers -- including how some Iraqi combatants don't play by the rules of war.

"We were engaged from the city by people dressed up in civilian clothes with AK-47s … that's when I was shot in the hand," the 21-year-old corporal explained.

Menard pointed out that local Iraqi civilians had at first seemed happy to see the Marines. That changed, he noted, when the civilians "turned on us and started firing on us."

And, some of the enemy's fire came from a nearby hospital, the Marine remarked, noting, "We were very surprised and it -- it shocked everybody." Menard said he'd soon return stateside for more treatment on his hand.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:pfAJf4eIzsYJ:www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/n03282003_200303285.html+wounded+combatants+iraq&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

3. Prisoners Of War (POWs) must not be subjected to torture, medical experimentation, and must be protected against acts of violence, insults, and public curiosity.

Angry Iraqis attack dismembered charred torso

Torched body hung on bridge

4. POWs are required to provide to their captors only their name, rank, date of birth, and military service number.Okay, if given the opportunity!

5. Prisoners are subject to the laws of their captors, and can be tried by their captors’ courts. The captor shall ensure fairness, impartiality, and a competent advocate (lawyer) for the prisoner.

The Mujahideen Shura Council Announces the Execution of the Captured Russian Diplomats

http://www.siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications187306&Category=publications&Subcategory=0

An internet statement from the Mujahideen Shura Council, which groups seven insurgent organisations, including al-Qaeda, in Iraq, said: "We give the good news ... to the Islamic nation that we have carried God's verdict by slaughtering the two captured crusaders. With God Almighty's blessing, Abu Hamza al-Muhajir carried out the verdict of the Islamic court for the soldiers' killing."

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=907492006

Taking of hostages is prohibited.

Taking of hostages is prohibited.

Oh we don't even want to get started on this one, do we?

Beginning in April 2004, members of the Iraqi insurgency began taking hostage foreign civilians in Iraq. Since then, they have kidnapped more than 200 foreigners and thousands of Iraqis; among them, 30 foreign hostages have been killed. The motives behind these kidnappings include influencing foreign governments with troops in Iraq and foreign companies with workers there, as well as ransom money and discouraging travel to Iraq. In 2004, executions of captives were often filmed, and several were beheaded. However, the number of videotaped killings has decreased significantly, and now the deaths of hostages are often announced only in a statement. Many hostages remain missing with no clue as to their whereabouts. The US Department of State Hostage Working Group was organized by the US Embassy in Baghdad in the summer of 2004 to monitor hostages in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_hostages_in_Iraq

7. Civilians cannot be forced to do military-related work for an occupying force.

Some Iraq suicide bombers 'forced'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. has evidence that some suicide bombers in Iraq may have been forced against their will to carry out attack missions.

A military official with the U.S. Central Command tells CNN that in one case after an attack, troops found a body with a foot tied with a rope inside a vehicle.

The official says there also is evidence of some individuals having their entire family held by extremists who then force them into suicide car bomb attacks.

ABC News reported the U.S. claims in an interview aired Friday.

In some attacks, suspected bombers have run from their cars and come to U.S. forces, officials said.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/26/iraq.bombers.force/

8. Indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations are prohibited.

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunman abducted about 85 workers Wednesday as they left an industrial plant north of Baghdad, police and a witness said. ADVERTISEMENT The workers were thought to be mostly Shiite and the plant is located in a predominantly Sunni Arab area. The witness said that about 85 workers were taken near the parking lot of the al-Nasr General Complex in Taji, 12 miles north of Baghdad, while police Lt. Thaer Mahmoud said they filled up a bus and a minivan. Taji is predominantly Sunni Arab area that has seen much insurgent activity.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_abduction;_ylt=Ag5pfSagsdVteM1BYiZt5C1vaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

And most of all

9. Recruitment of children under age 15 into the armed forces is forbidden.

Iraqi Children in Military Camp

(May 17, 2001)

The Iraqi government is again preparing to place children in military training camps, as it has done in the past several years, despite the reluctance of families, the dangerous conditions in these camps, and the censure of Arab and international organizations.

According to a report in Al-Zaman (April 15, 2001), the Governor of Baghdad, General Sabir Abdul Aziz Al-Douri, is making preparations for two month long sessions this summer, from June through August. Children from elementary schools are forced to take part in the training and in the past several children have died from heat strokes, accidents and the rigors of training.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:giB-dooKKgAJ:www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2001/may/17_kids.html+iraqi+children+in+military&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

10. Combatants cannot conceal their allegiance; they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.

You mean like this

Attacks are forbidden on civilians, crops, water sources, cultural objects, and places of worship.

Oh you don't say! Well I guess the fffs did not know and that is why they did this:

Google search: insurgents blow up mosque iraq

terrorists blow up mosque iraq

Children are to be evacuated to safe areas when possible, and reunited with their families.

Use of Human Shields

According to Human Rights Watch interviewees and U.S. and U.K. media reports, Iraqi armed forces endangered civilians by using them to shield combatants from the enemy. Iraqi prisoners of war said they received orders to “use any means necessary” during their battle with the Marines including “putting women and children in the street.”165 Human Rights Watch gathered testimonies that are consistent with such allegations. Yusif Sahib Jawad, a 29-year-old taxi driver, witnessed fedayeen fighters hiding between houses on al-Madina Street where much of the fighting in al-Najaf took place. “Most of the fedayeen and Ba`thists distributed and hid between houses because they thought the Americans wouldn’t shoot civilians. They used civilians as shields,” he said.166 In one case, he saw Ba`th militia members spot a U.S. helicopter in the sky and then pull their car next to a car carrying a civilian family. The helicopter fired and seven civilians died in their vehicle, Jawad said.167 The press reported that helicopter pilots often encountered these kinds of situations.168

Can we tweak Geneva's Convention just a tiny weenie bit now pretty please?

[Reeses]

barbarians play by their own rules

Human evolution works like this:

Step 1) Neanderthals make their genetic or cultural superiors sufficiently angry.

Step 2) Neanderthals are completely removed from the face of Earth.

[Uncle Miltie]

Excellent post. Thanks for the backup.

[ordinaryguy]

Under Geneva to be considered a lawful combatant- either civilian militia or military, you must wear a uniform OR identifiable insignia, or be carrying arms openly to set yourself apart from unarmed civilians.

Specifically, which Geneva Convention states that? The Convention linked to in a previous post simply defines 'Prisoner of war', and the protections of those prisoners.

I have yet to find any Geneva Convention which even uses the term 'lawful combatant'.

[RandallFlagg]

Sweeet!
Crosslinking.
Thanks!