Posted on 05/24/2006 10:23:25 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
ATLANTA - Former president Carter, a Democrat and frequent critic of President Bush, sees eye-to-eye with him on immigration.
Carter on Wednesday called the Republican president's commitment to immigration reform "quite admirable," saying he agrees with Bush's support of a system that would eventually grant citizenship to some illegals.
The Senate is set to vote as early as Thursday on a bill that calls for tougher border security as well as an eventual chance at citizenship for millions of men and women in the country illegally.
The law should secure the nation's borders while "at the same time treating those who are here with respect and giving them some hope for the future," Carter said.
The Senate plan, which closely mirrors Bush's own proposal, faces an uncertain fate in the House, where representatives have passed legislation that would expose all illegal immigrants to felony charges.
Carter spoke at the close of a three-day forum of international human rights workers at The Carter Center in Atlanta. Human rights activists from 22 countries attended the forum.
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On the Net:
The Carter Center: http://www.cartercenter.org
Can't get enough of the Democrat-contolled mainstream media's Kool-Aid, eh?
Sure I have. FR isn't a reflection of the entire country.
When Carter and Kennedy agree with President Bush, you know there's got to be something wrong. That should tell him right away that he is making a mistake.
I learned at a very early age never to expect 'all' and to except what life hands me. Makes for a much happier attitude and outlook on life and better for your health too.
By this time next week it'll be something else they've got their teeth into and this will be forgotten for a while.
It's really quite simple. It's called 'enforcing the laws on the books'. Go back and read it over slowly if you like. Move your lips if you must. Take your time and then we'll move on.
Ready? Good.
And how are you prepared to deal with the possible consequences of rigorous law enforcement on illegal aliens?
What consequences exactly are you referring to? The consequence of millions self-deporting? Here's how I'll deal with that: I'll have a party.
Perhaps you're referring to the consequences of actually fining and jailing felons so I'll take a stab at how I'd deal with that. Ready? Good. Here goes: I'll throw a a party.
And how do you deal with the morale issue of sending out Federal agents (civilian or military) day after day to round up people they will probably sympathize with?
Any time the burden of doing their jobs becomes too great they are free to find other employment. But if they need a morale boost here's what I'll do. Ready? Good. I'll throw them a party and pat them on the back for a job well done. Then I'll let them keep their jobs. How is that?
Put yourself in the President's shoes, and come up with a solution that is feasible, likely, and rational.
Done that. Ready for Lurkers Five Point Plan? Good:
1.) Fine employers who employ illegal labor $5,000.00 per day per illegal for the first offense. A second offense doubles the fine and adds a five year prison sentence.
2.) Increase the penalty for smuggling humans to 25 years in prison without the possibility of parole. A second offense is natural life in prison without possibility of parole.
3.) Institute an immediate 100% tariff on private remittances to any Nation south of the Rio Grande River.
4.) Make the verification of identity documents require on I-9 forms mandatory instead of voluntary as it is now. Employers who make a documented good faith effort to verify that documents are genuine are exempt from the punishments in Step 1.
5.) Increase the penalties for dealing in forged documents to 10 years in prison for the first offense. A second offense doubles the prison time.
All steps are Constitutional, rational, and best of all would be effective. Unable to gain employment millions would self deport.
See? It's not really that hard.
L
Answer the question:
How do you propose to solve the problem while remaining within the confines of the Constitution, statutory laws, and conservative principles of limited government?
A glib, simple answer is not a solution. Propose how you think the problem should be solved, in detail.
Scroll down to the bottom of my post and read the 5 steps I posted as you requested.
All 5 steps meet your criteria.
L
1.) Fine employers who employ illegal labor $5,000.00 per day per illegal for the first offense. A second offense doubles the fine and adds a five year prison sentence.
Fine. How?
2.) Increase the penalty for smuggling humans to 25 years in prison without the possibility of parole. A second offense is natural life in prison without possibility of parole.
Fine. This is an easy one, but it won't stop the human smuggling.
3.) Institute an immediate 100% tariff on private remittances to any Nation south of the Rio Grande River.
Absolutely... Government taxes are nice, so long as it isn't you being taxed. This is a tax, and it won't stop the money flowing out. The money will just find other ways to go out. How do you propose to distinguish between legitimate money transfers, as all transfers will be private?
4.) Make the verification of identity documents require on I-9 forms mandatory instead of voluntary as it is now. Employers who make a documented good faith effort to verify that documents are genuine are exempt from the punishments in Step 1.
How do you plan on enforcing this rigorously enough to make a difference?
5.) Increase the penalties for dealing in forged documents to 10 years in prison for the first offense. A second offense doubles the prison time.
Simple enough, but it won't deter the professional criminals. Increasing punishment doesn't do much for curbing crime if there's no provision for catching them.
I'll admit, I didn't read your post before replying last time. Didn't seem worth it. I want to know how you'll you solve the problem of illegal aliens, and you gave me some glib ideas but no solutions. Enforcement is going to be a bit*h, and you need to address how you're going to increase enforcement capability while respecting the rights of citizens, the Constitution, and the statutory laws of the land, Federal and State.
The answer is not simple.
Do you understand the concept of 'enforcement' at all? If an employer is caught employing illegals, the fines and prison time come to bear. We have people who do that sort of work. They're called 'policemen'. Do they have them where you live?
Fine. This is an easy one, but it won't stop the human smuggling.
Wanna bet? Would you put someone in the trunk of your car if you knew you'd be facing a 25 year stretch at the Graybar Hotel?
How do you propose to distinguish between legitimate money transfers
I don't propose to attempt any such thing. I said 'all'. I meant 'all'.
Re: Step 4.: How do you plan on enforcing this rigorously enough to make a difference?
See Step One. Spot inspections on employers by those funny people called 'policemen' I mentioned above. If you want to get really specific about them it's the INS who enforces those laws. I'd have them do it.
Re: Step 5: Simple enough, but it won't deter the professional criminals. Increasing punishment doesn't do much for curbing crime if there's no provision for catching them.
Once again for the comprehension impaired; it's called 'law enforcement' for a reason. We have people who do this sort of thing for a living. We manage to break up drug rings, car theft rings, burglary rings, prostution rings, and put mafiosos into prison. I think our LE folks can handle document forgers.
I'll admit, I didn't read your post before replying last time
Then why on Earth did you waste my time with an insipid response without even bothering to read what I wrote? What motivates that kind of thing? Then you toss out this canard:
you need to address how you're going to increase enforcement capability while respecting the rights of citizens, the Constitution, and the statutory laws of the land, Federal and State.
Good Heavens I thought lead was dense....
What part of my proposal do you think is un-Constitutional? How do any of them fail to respect the rights of law abiding citizens? Which of them conflicts with existing Federal Laws? Why am I even bothering to converse with someone who admits he didn't even read my original post?
L
What about respect and hope for Americans? I can't think of anything bad enough to call him.
Carter and Clinton being for it should be reason enough to be against it. Forget about how it rewards lawbreakers and screws Americans.
You still refuse to propose how you intend to enforce these ideas.
You seem oblivious of the fact that such enforcement will require increasing Federal law enforcement personnel, capabilities, and intrusiveness.
I want to know how you're going to do so without creating an oppressive environment in which to live.
Remember, there are somewhere between 10-20 million illegals in our country. Tell me how you're going to track them, find them, catch them, detain them, and deport them. All of them.
As for confiscating or taxing at a rate of 100% all money transfers to countries south of the Rio Grande... Are you sure you're a conservative? That sounds like legitimized highway robbery, and such a policy would only force the money into criminal hands for transfer out of the country, thus pumping more money into the underground, criminal economy. Plus, what about American citizens and legal residents who want to send money to relatives in those countries?
First Bubba and now Jimbo... More nails in the amnesty coffin.
If Carter is for it, I'm definitely against it.
That idiot is the worst ex-President in living memory.
You seem oblivious of the fact that such enforcement will require increasing Federal law enforcement personnel, capabilities, and intrusiveness.
I'm not oblivious. From where I'm sitting you seem to be though. Here's an idea, maybe we could hire some more law enforcement people. It's just nutty enought to work! INS could enforce the paperwork requirements, just like they do now.
I want to know how you're going to do so without creating an oppressive environment in which to live.
I'm just sadly shaking my head at the breathtakingly broad silliness of this question. Apparently collecting all this data, as employers are required to do now, isn't creating an oppresive atmosphere so I hardly see how making it mandatory will somehow snuff out the candle of freedom in the United States.
Remember, there are somewhere between 10-20 million illegals in our country
I'm painfully aware of this fact.
Tell me how you're going to track them, find them, catch them, detain them, and deport them
Are you a professional point-misser? If you aren't you should be because you're extremely good at it. Only one of my proposals was actually aimed at the illegals and that was the one regarding smugglers. All the rest were aimed at the demand side of the problem.
As for confiscating or taxing at a rate of 100% all money transfers to countries south of the Rio Grande... Are you sure you're a conservative?
Tariffs are in fact the only Federal taxes permitted by the Constitution before the Income Tax was ratified. You might want to actually crack a copy of the document sometime. You might find actually reading it to be an illuminating experience.
such a policy would only force the money into criminal hands for transfer out of the country,...yadda yadda
You are aware that it's illegal to smuggle large amounts of currency out of the country without declaring it now, aren't you? Customes quite routinely seizes large amounts of cash now. This will give them the opportunity to seize even more ill-gotten money.
Plus, what about American citizens and legal residents who want to send money to relatives in those countries?
They can pay the tariff.
L
How many law enforcement officers will be needed to find, capture, detain, and deport 10-20 million illegal aliens?
How much will this cost?
What will happen when their job is finished?
I'm trying to get you to think as if you're President. At the moment, you're thinking like an armchair quarterback, with no responsibility for failure, abuse, morale, or cost.
I should also note that you need to build into your proposed solution the ability for your ideas to adjust to how the illegal community and the criminal organizations will adapt to your law enforcement efforts.
Also keep in mind that enforcement as you describe will require time to recruit, train, and enact - and during that time the criminal and illegal elements, along with sympathetic Americans will act at counter purpose to the enforcement efforts.
And try to imagine the information systems required to tabulate, analyze, and process the information you want to use to find violators, illegals, and abettors. You'll be gathering a lot more information than it takes to find a terrorist, and you'll be targeting American citizens, analyzing private information w/out a warrant for the purpose of law enforcement. This isn't self-defense or national security, but law enforcement.
Now, consider that employers will find ways to disguise their employment of illegals, if they're so inclined. The enforcement you propose will only increase the criminal exploitation of illegals by criminals, while doing nothing of getting rid of the illegals or the criminals... Find one illegal employer/factory and another will spring up.
If you think your ideas will work, you're extremely naive.
You're really not very bright, are you. I posted 4 steps to deal with the demand side of the problem and you keep asking me about something which I never said.
I'm trying to get you to think as if you're President.
I did. I posted five things the legislature can do at little cost to the taxpayer. You're either unwilling or unable (that's the way I'm betting) to comprehend them.
with no responsibility for failure, abuse, morale, or cost.
My proposals will very nearly pay for themselves. As to abuse, what exactly do you mean? Who would do the abusing and whom would they abuse? Morale? Whose morale? We dealt with that 10 posts ago.
you're thinking like an armchair quarterback,
It doesn't seem to me that you're thinking at all.
L
I got it Lurker, and I'm sure virtually everyone else reading this understood what you said...except one, apparently. Not a first time offender, either.
You're delusional. None of your ideas will work without rigid and rigorous enforcement, including the finding, capture, detention, and deportation of illegals.
There's too much money involved that your ideas will only drive the problem further underground, increasing the criminal element, criminal violence, etc. And the only way to patch your failures would be to significantly increase the footprint of the Federal law enforcement agencies.
You may not see it that way, but that's what will happen. Take one look at the war on drugs, and multiply the problem a thousand times a thousand. And then throw in the fact that 1/5-1/3 of the American population will participate in obstructing your policies, further requiring an increase in law enforcement powers and intrusiveness to get past such obstruction.
Do you really think that people here illegally will self deport? I ask this respectfully. I lived 10 miles from the border for 47 years. I see what's happening, and it's coming to a city near you. These people have their own communities. They can find work from those in their communities. They work out of thier cars. While some may send some money back to Mexico, I know that what alot do is use their money to buy whatever they need (tools, cleaning supplies, etc.) to become self sufficient and self employed. Who is going to go into latino communities and bust people for hiring illegals? Heck, I can't tell who is one, and I'm scared that if I was to ask, I'd have some kind of lawsuit brought against me. Are we going to have ICE walking into Juan's tortilleria and bust Juan?
The latest thing I've noticed is that people that may or may not be illegals are buying condos and houses, and living with more than one family. Instead of or in addition to sending money to Mexico, they are working on the homes, with help from their buddies, to increase the value so that they can sell it, pocket the profit, and do it again. In fact, you can't even tell if the realtors are here legally down here in San Diego now. If you go to http://www.dre.ca.gov/relaw_pdf/Regs.pdf and scroll down a few pages in the Regulations of the Real Estate Commissioner (California) you will find that the biggest section in the regulations deals with granting special considerations to aliens.
These people only work in the low paying jobs until they can move up, and I just find it hard to believe, in my experience, that these people will self deport, especially when just collecting aluminum cans or selling drugs will make them more money than they could make in their homeland. I seriously want border enforcement, and something done to save American jobs for Americans, but I just can't see this self deporting thing working, even as much as I'd like to see it happen. Again, I am asking this in a respectful manner, and wanted to know your thoughts.
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