Posted on 03/12/2006 7:51:11 PM PST by bayourant
Did Race play a role in the Port Deal discussions? The very charge is met by the likes of Sean Hannity and others with Righteous Indigination. In fact, to mention it makes you the true problem. Mark Levin in fact called a MAjor General a dirtbag over that charge. The below cartoons may be an issue now in the UAE. They are not cartoons about that ole darn prophet however. THere will be no boycotts over these but remember still they dont help things. The cartoonist just give us what we want sometimes. From MSNBC the following cartoon. There were many others that through the glory of the net are available to all.
Yes you did! Happy post 1100, lol : )
You brought it up...you could have walked away gracefully, and taken your lumps...and yet, you decided you had to take one more shot at everyone that isn't you.
To: JRios1968
---Agreed...but bayourant definitely fouled up and refused to back down when confronted with facts!---
Like everyone else around here...
:^)
1,032 posted on 03/15/2006 7:21:58 AM PST by claudiustg (Delenda est Iran!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1022 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
I proved my point with facts. Now you don't like my facts but you have done nothing to disprove them. You make specious arguments against them but have shown no facts disproving any of them.
From Source 2 --
"Dubai is also one of the region's most open banking centers and is the commercial capital of the United Arab Emirates, one of three countries that maintained diplomatic relations with the Taliban until shortly after Sept. 11. Sitting at a strategic crossroad of the Persian Gulf, South Asia and Africa, Dubai has long been a financial hub for Islamic militant groups. Much of the $500,000 used to fund the Sept. 11 attacks came through Dubai, investigators believe.
"All roads lead to Dubai when it comes to money. Everyone did business there," said Patrick Jost, who until last year was a senior financial enforcement officer in the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network."
'snip'
"Dubai's links to suspected terrorist financing and money laundering have long been a point of contention between the United States and the United Arab Emirates."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A22303-2002Feb16?language=printer
Private companies in the UAE doing dirty deals is not a problem, right? Either the government knows (bad and likely) or they don't have control (worse).
Source 4 - EU supports Hamas too? Show me where the EU gives bounties for Jihadists. That is the worst equivalency on this thread and I'm no Europhile.
Pre 9/11 was okay? Wow, short memory for the Khobar Towers and USS Cole dead. Some of us are still angry about Lebanon and Iran. And I'm supposed to believe the UAE did a complete 180 and cleaned out all their Al Qaeda loving sheiks? Why? Their form of government is not capable of that. Sheiks are not voted out of power.
Source 6 -- So supporting Al Qaeda is now a WOD issue to you? Massive distortion by you. Guess what, our Mafia does not support global Jihad.
"He has declared Jihad on the whole Saudi royal family. And they have declared war on him. The fact remains, the reason they asked us to stop military operations out of Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with Bin Laden.'
Show me the FACTS on that and everything else you have claimed. Thus far all I have is your say so and that's not good enough especially given your dismissal of hard data to the contrary.
and here is one more:
"I don't doubt that the UAE has provided a great deal of assistance to the United States in the War on Terror, for which we ought to be grateful. And all nations will have organized crime of one variety or another, so the presence of some wiseguys in Dubai doesn't disqualify them from doing business in the U.S. My point is that these particular gangsters are also Islamic terrorists with serious links to al Qaeda, and there is precious little evidence that Dubai is serious about stopping them. "
'snip'
You can either do business with terrorists, or you can do business with the United States. In the coming weeks, let's watch the Emirates make crystal clear which side they have picked.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9459
OK, let's take a look at your point. It was... "Many elements in their governments, not to mention the populace, of SA, and ALL Gulf States including UAE support Al Qaeda and terrorism." So you believe the articles you linked prove the governments of Saudi Arabia and ALL Gulf states support Al Qaeda and terrorism. I've got more time now, so let me take another look.
Source 1. You've linked an article describing a 2002 message from Al Qaeda to leaders of the UAE. Let me quote from your source...."The warning was contained in a June 2002 message to UAE rulers, in which the terror network demanded the release of an unknown number of "mujahedeen detainees," who it said had been arrested during a government crackdown in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks....
Little is known about the origins or authorship of the message." Tell me again how this proves your point? A message from a questionable source is threatening the UAE because the UAE cracked down on terrorists after 9/11. Source 1 clearly does not prove your point.
Source 2...This is a Washington Post article published 6 months after the 9/11 attacks. It describes how the Taliban converted its assets into gold bullion and distributed it throughout the world including the United States. Dubai is described as being a central clearing house for international financial transfers. Why? To quote the article, "It is no more lax and unregulated than many places. The answer is, Dubai is so damn convenient." But the article discusses how everyone from the Taliban to the CIA use Dubai's financial markets to funnel funds around the region. Sounds kind of like the Swiss banking system. The article goes on to say, "Since Sept. 11, U.S. officials said, the emirates have been much more cooperative on tracing suspect finances and last month enacted the most stringent money laundering laws in the region." So Dubai has a loose financial system used by everyone including our CIA to transfer money around the world to places including the United States. Does this prove the UAE supports Al Qaeda. Apparently not anymore than it supports the CIA.
Source 3. As I said before...see source 1.
Source 4. An NRO piece describing UAE support of Hamas through bogus charities. Again, this would be more of an issue if Europe wasn't doing the same thing. In fact, according to William Pope, a State Department anti-terrorism coordinator, Hamas and Hezbollah get "a considerable portion of their funding from Europe." And this article defines even more clearly how charities in Europe support exactly what your NRO article accuses the UAE of doing. Interestingly, it says nothing about the UAE. So with that in mind, do we really want condemn the UAE and ignore Europe?
Source 5. Pre 9/11 does nothing to prove the UAE currently supports Al Qaeda.
Source 6. The article snippet discusses the baby brother of a drug runner who the UAE arrested in 2002 and deported to Pakistan, and another drugrunner who was last seen in Atlanta, Georgia before getting arrested in Portugal. Are you kidding me? This proves what?!?
So let's repeat the point you think you've proved..."Many elements in their governments, not to mention the populace, of SA, and ALL Gulf States including UAE support Al Qaeda and terrorism." You have not offered a single bit of evidence that the UAE currently supports Al Qaeda. And the only evidence it supports terrorism puts it in exactly the same boat as Europe.
You are referring to this statement... "He has declared Jihad on the whole Saudi royal family. And they have declared war on him. The fact remains, the reason they asked us to stop military operations out of Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with Bin Laden." Fair enough. The following sources describe Bin Laden's war on the House of Saud...
"Purported Bin Laden Tape Condemns Saudi Rulers"
And the following sources describe why (and when) we removed our troops from Saudi Arabia...
"and everything else you have claimed."
Could you be a little more specific?
man...this is like a Dixie thread....on and on
lol
At 7:51pm bayourant started the thread.
At 7:54pm holdonnow made his first comment
It took a little while for bayourant(and a few others who were reading the thread) to actually understand that holdonnow was Mark Levin
At 8:04pm bayourant said that he might be mistaken about which person at WABC said it
At 8:13pm bayourant says he looked back at his posts and it was Mark Levin because he said in the LIVE thread while the show was being commented on that he posted that Mark Levin called the general a dirtbag and none of the people actually listening to the show at the time told him that wasn't what he said
At 8:17 bayourant says that he will go look for an archive of the show
At 8:23 Jim Robinson posts that bayourant has been banned
So bayourant had 6 minutes to try to find the archive, listen to it and realize that he had heard it wrong and come back and apologize. I don't think that bayourant was confronted with enough facts to counter what he believed that he had heard with his own ears before he was banned.
There was a lot of emotion, a lot of confusion and a lot of misunderstanding. I've stated before in this thread that after I heard the archive once I thought that Mark Levin had called the general a mudball. I had to listen to it twice, read the transcript and listen to it a third time before I understood exactly what he said. Mark Levin did not say he was tired of people throwing mudballs. He said he was tired of the mudballs and that made it really easy to misinterpret that he was calling the general a mudball.
The denial by Prince Sultan is particularly convincing. Politically motivated face saving denials do not change the facts here.
I do not deny that Bin Laden is at war with PARTS of the Saudi royals. But there are others who support him and who he supports.
Al Qaeda is allowed to preach in all the SA Mosques. No public speech happens without state sanction. The Saudis support and export Jihad around the world.
You sound like an Arabist from our State Dept. Oil and business motivate you. And you have lost all sight of reality. When you compare UAE favorably to Europe you lose all credibility.
"And this article defines even more clearly how charities in Europe support exactly what your NRO article accuses the UAE of doing. Interestingly, it says nothing about the UAE. So with that in mind, do we really want condemn the UAE and ignore Europe?"
Your argument is ridiculous. The UAE knowingly wants to support HAMAS, Europe unwittingly does so at much smaller sums.
..................
On July 27, 2005, the Palestinian Information Center carried a public HAMAS statement thanking the UAE for it’s “unstinting support.” The statement said: “We highly appreciate his highness Sheikh Khalifa Bin Zayed Bin Sultan Al-Nahyan (UAE president) in particular and the UAE people and government in general for their limitless support…that contributed more to consolidating our people's resoluteness in the face of the Israeli occupation".
The HAMAS statement continued: "the sisterly UAE had… never hesitated in providing aid for our Mujahid people pertaining to rebuilding their houses demolished by the IOF… The UAE also spared no effort to offer financial and material aids to the Palestinian charitable societies." Indeed, as documented by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S), HAMAS charitable societies,” are known as integral parts of the HAMAS infrastructure, and are outlawed by Israel and the U.S.
The HAMAS statement included a special tribute: "One can never forget the generous donations of the late Sheikh Zayed Bin Sultan,” the father of the current UAE president. Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan al Nahayan of Abu Dhabi, was the first Arab leader to understand the importance of waging economic Jihad against the West, and was the first to use oil as a political weapon following the Yom Kippur War in 1973. On the eve of the 1991 Gulf War he branded the United States “our number two enemy” after Israel.
The multi-billionaire Sheikh Zayed, was an early patron of the PLO, and from the 1970’s until his death in 2004, contributed millions of dollars to the terror agenda of the PLO, HAMAS and Islamic Jihad.
Human Appeal International, a UAE government-operated “charitable” organization, whose board includes the UAE president, funds HAMAS as well as other Palestinian organizations, “martyrs,” Palestinian terrorists in Israeli prisons and their families. The HAI’s modus operandi is to transfer money to the Palestinian Red Crescent Organization whose West Bank and Gaza branches are operated by HAMAS. They, in turn, distribute the money to HAMAS “charities.”
For example, according to the Orient Research Center in Toronto, Canada, the UAE “compensation” plan for the Palestinian intifada in 2001 included $3,000 for every Palestinian shaheed, $2,000 for his family, $1,500 for those detained by Israel, $1,200 for each orphan. In addition, families of those terrorists whose homes Israel demolished each received $10,000.
Also in 2001, in support of the martyr’s families in the Palestinian intifada, two telethons were organized in the UAE. “We Are All Palestinians” raised 135 million dirham, or $36.8 million, and “For Your Sake Palestine” raised 350 million dirham, or $95.3 million.
According to a detailed report on March 25, 2005, in the Palestinian daily Al Hayat al-Jadeeda, the UAE Friends Society transferred $475,000, through the UAE Red Crescent, to West Bank “charitable” organizations in Hebron, Jenin, Nablus and Tulkarem to distribute to the families of “martyrs,” orphans, imprisoned Palestinians and others.
The Palestinian newspaper Al-Ayyam reported on March 22, 2005, that in 2004 the UAE Red Crescent donated $2 million to HAMAS “charities” to be distributed to 3,158 terrorists’ orphans.
On February 15, 2005, the HAMAS website reported on funds transferred from HAI to two HAMAS front organizations in the West Bank, IQRA and Rifdah, which Israel had outlawed. And last July, Osama Zaki Muhammad Bashiti of Khan Younis in Gaza was arrested as he returned from the UAE, for often transferring funds of as much as $200,000 at a time to the Gaza HAMAS branch. The suicide bombing and attacks, including one mortar attack on Gush Katif, caused the death of 44 Israeli civilians and dozens of injuries.
The UAE support of HAMAS is in line with the agenda promoted by the late Sheikh Zayed. His Zayed Center for International Coordination and Followup, founded in 1999 as the official Arab League think-tank, was shuttered under international pressure in 2003. It championed Holocaust deniers like Thierry Meyssan and Roger Garaudy and provided a platform for anti-Western, anti-Christian and anti-Jewish extremists like Saudi economist Dr. Yussuf Abdallah Al Zamel, who blamed the war in Iraq on "radical Zionist and right-wing Christian" influence.
Although UAE foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan stated that the Emirates have been and remain a “strong ally of the U.S. in combating terrorism,” its continuing support of HAMAS and other Islamist organizations contradict his statement. This legitimately raises concerns about trusting U.S. ports to UAE management.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21413
Good points. Still, bayourant spent time he/she could have spent getting more info...instead, he/she spent it defending his/her posting, even after being told a few times who holdonnow is.
Oh well...que sera, sera.
NEXT!!
Saudi Royals?!? Show me the evidence.
"Al Qaeda is allowed to preach in all the SA Mosques."
Why do you insist on making stuff up? How long is it going to take for you to realize that not everyone just accepts unsupported statements as fact? How much of this garbage do YOU really believe?
"You sound like an Arabist from our State Dept."
I guess I prefer that to the ignorance you are displaying.
"And you have lost all sight of reality."
Yet I support my positions with actual facts. You just make things up and hope folks will believe you. Spare me your lectures on "reality".
"When you compare UAE favorably to Europe you lose all credibility."
I have been fired on by new French missiles over Iraq. Missiles that didn't exist in Iraq before the first Gulf War. I have bombed French radar equipment used by Iraqis to target our aircraft flying UN mandated no fly zone enforcement missions. And then, I have seen those radar sites rebuilt with new French equipment soon after we destroyed them. No weapons systems or military equipment leaves a Western nation without approval of its government. Especially not from companies that rely on EU subsidies to survive. And as their weapons were used against American pilots, the French and German governments did everything in their power cripple our efforts to overthrow Saddam. Their political leaders continue to base their political campaigns on who can make stronger anti-US statements. Their courts threaten to try our soldiers as war criminals, while their defense industries compete to supply weapons that kill our soldiers in the field. And don't even get me started on our good NATO allies the Turks.
And while all this is going on, do you know what the Government of the UAE has done. Given us everything we asked for. Opened their ports to support our war on terror. Provided military airfields so we can fly surveillance missions. Dealt with direct threats from Al Qaeda and other terror groups for working too closely with us. And all the while providing one of the most secure environments in the world for our operations in and out of the country.
So please don't lecture me about the UAE not being favorable to Europe. I'd drop our "alliance" with Continental Europe in a heartbeat in favor of countries like the UAE. You've got NO IDEA what you are talking about, and don't even realize how little you know. You toss out fiction like its fact and wonder why everyone doesn't share your view of "reality". It boggles the mind.
You didn't even read the article I linked for you did you? It is right there in post 1105 labeled "this article". You should read it. It explains exactly how the same charities the UAE contributes to, are also well established in Europe. Countries like Holland, Germany, Belgium and Denmark allow these charities to operate freely in their countries. And the millions of dollars contributed by those charities is converted in exactly the same way the money the UAE contributes to those charities into payments to terrorists and their families. Let me quote the article for you...
"Hamas's charitable societies and committees in Judea, Samaria and Gaza also provide food and monetary assistance to the families of those who have been killed and wounded in perpetrating acts of terror and who have been imprisoned for their involvement in acts of terror. Such families typically receive an initial, one-time grant of between $500-5,000, as well as a monthly allowance of approximately $100. The families of Hamas terrorists usually receive larger payments than those of non-Hamas terrorists. These charitable societies and committees also provide the families with scholarships and educational subsidies. The dawa groups also provide financial assistance for the rebuilding of homes that have been demolished due to their owners' involvement in terror."
Sound familiar? And that money is provided in the 10's of millions of dollars by European nations who make their contributions to "charities" that are widely known as clearing houses for funding terror. So again, please don't lecture me on the purity of Europe vs. the UAE. The FACTS prove you wrong.
Me: "Al Qaeda is allowed to preach in all the SA Mosques."
You: "Why do you insist on making stuff up? How long is it going to take for you to realize that not everyone just accepts unsupported statements as fact? How much of this garbage do YOU really believe?"
Do you speak Arabic? Do you read any Arabic translations? MEMRI?
I read it everyday.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP108006
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?
The signatories claimed in the communiqué that the resistance against the coalition forces in Iraq is an Islamic duty: "There is no doubt that the Jihad against the occupiers is an obligation incumbent upon any able person. This is a type of Jihad whose aim is to repel the aggressor, and it is not bound by the conditions that hold for an intentional Jihad; thus, there is no need for a supreme leadership [i.e., a Caliph who would declare Jihad ], but rather the matter is undertaken according to [each Muslim's] ability… these occupiers are undoubtedly military aggressors, and there is a legal consensus concerning [the obligation] to fight them so that they will leave in humiliation, Allah willing. In addition, worldly law also recognizes a people's right to resistance…
'snip'
The only senior Saudi officials to condemn the communiqué were the Saudi ambassadors to the U.S. and to Britain, in statements that appeared only in English.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP89605
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=947
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SP103205
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=IA24105
http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=523
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SP107606
Yes, I really believe what I read in the Arabic press and from their governments in Arabic. If you only read the MSM as your links to me show, you get the sanitized version. You are a naif.
"Yes, I really believe what I read in the Arabic press and from their governments in Arabic."
Well that's great. Now show me your source for your claim that Al Qaeda is allowed to preach in all the SA Mosques.
That is an ironic statement, because in the very third link Dervish posted is the following quote from a Saudi Mufti...
"Saudi Sheikh Abd Al-Muhsin Al-Abikan said to the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "What is happening in Falluja is the result of such fatwa s and communiqués … There is no evidence in the Shari'a [to permit] this resistance… [even] if the evidence was true, it does not hold true for the present situation, since [the resistance] is bringing about tragedy and destruction for Iraq, Falluja, and their residents."
"Well that's great. Now show me your source for your claim that Al Qaeda is allowed to preach in all the SA Mosques."
Don't be silly. Imams that shill for Al Qaeda and preach its support is what I meant and have shown in numerous links. Non-clergy do not preach in Mosques. So don't expect Al Qaeda non-clergy to preach in mosques.
You can discount everything I posted but you are showing willful blindness in your defense of Saudi Arabia. Why? Are you in the oil business?
And you did not answer my question - do you follow Arabs in their own langauge? They speak very differently in Arabic and Farsi than the gloss they put out for the English language press.
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