Posted on 02/21/2006 8:47:54 AM PST by wjersey
CLEVELAND
A federal grand jury has indicted three Ohio men on charges of planning attacks on U.S. military personnel in Iraq, according to an indictment.
The three men, who all lived in Toledo within the last year, were arrested over the weekend, said Assistant U.S. Attorney David Bauer in Toledo. The indictment was unsealed Monday.
They were to be arraigned in federal courts in Cleveland and Toledo on Tuesday afternoon.
The suspects recruited others to train for a violent holy war against the United States and its allies in Iraq, the indictment said. The group traveled together to a shooting range to practice shooting guns and studied how to make explosives, the indictment said.
Eavesdropping on conversations (whether by phone, email, or smoke signal) with known or suspected foreign terrorists is not unreasonable.
I'm afraid we will have to disagree on that matter. There are plenty of times when probable cause is adequate for a search, and the process of getting a warrant would prevent an opportunity to conduct an effective search.
I think I see where we disagree.
You posted the fourth amendment which starts "The right of the people..."
I read that to mean that there is a definition of "the people" somewhere before this amendment. The pre-amble says "We the People of the United States", I believe that is the definition of "the people". You seem to extend that to not only people who were born here, not only to people who have become naturalized citizens, you are extending that to people outside of the USA, who may have never set foot on the soil of the USA. I reject that assuption, especially after those people are joined with those who attacked this nation on Sept 11 2001 and many other dates.
"That can't possibly be true because we never hear about it and we know that muslims are all the same. Plus, I'm sure someone here knows better and will quote the koran or hadith and tell us that muslims aren't allowed to turn in their muslim neighbors. Hence, the people you're talking about aren't muslims. They're muslim impersonators. And btw, you must be muslim yourself and just lying to us infidels."
Bwahahahaha. That is funny.
I don't know about those you were replying to, but I caught the sarcasm right away.
"No matter how you want to reason away your position, a "reasonable" search Constitutionally requires a warrant."
According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
That is not always the case.
Thank you for posting # 168.
I am seeing a little more on this discussion.
First of all, I am under the impression that the phone and e-mail intercepts are brought about by information obtained by arrests and searches of Al Queda operations in other counties. We know the e-mail addresses and phone numbers and monitor them based on that. In that case we are talking probable cause is already established. A warrant may assist, but this is a war situation, not a crime and even in crime, a warrant is not necessarily required.
If there is evidence that there are intercepts that are not based on Al Queada searches and arrests, that would not involve the war, and would need to be looked at in a completely different manner.
Also, the intercepts are only when the communication involves within the US and outside the US. I have no problem with any of this.
There are other circumstances that I would look at in a completely different manner. Just not here.
The wiretapping at issue here isn't to garner information for use in courts. It's used to garner information for use on the battlefield. Warrants do not apply on a battlefield.
I know the press has made an effort to make it sound like we're wiretapping people inside the US in order to get around their legal defense- hence the press's grossly inaccurate terminology "domestic spying," and the implication that warrantless wiretapped info is going to be used to unfairly convict some schmuck. But the wiretapping the press has been whining about is eavesdropping on overseas conversations where one end of the line is on foreign soil and can be tapped by just about anyone and any country without any warrants precisly because there is no way for one country to enforce privacy laws outside its own shores when calls get transmitted through other countries. It seems stupid for us to require an elected, term-limited government to obtain the permission of a small cadre of nonelected judges with lifetime appointments just to get the privilege of listening into international calls that the rest of the planet already has free access to.
BUMP. A crime defined in the Constitution.
index bump
I also want to thank you for the discussion. I think, in the end we are probably very close in theory about how things should work, it may be the details we diagree about. I know that I learned a few things during this discussion.
Thanks again for the conversation.
Jane
Just a bit of follow-up from last week. The more and more of this stuff that comes out...the more I think northern Ohio is a hotbed. Funny to think that people in my area could be in real danger. I keep adding to these little snippits to my profile page and the dots keep getting connected.
I'd keep an eye on the Amawi investigation in Cleveland. Amawi had been living in Toledo, but moved to Cleveland and was arraigned in Cleveland. Why keep an eye on this particular case? Possible links to the ring at the Islamic Center of Cleveland, I wonder if this guy was in charge of making the travel arrangements once the ICC had all the fake documents in place?
An indication that the "fight them over there" strategy appears to be working
New Information Emerges about Terrorism Suspects
Feb 23, 2006, 06:21 AM EST
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4537992&nav=0ReA
TOLEDO -- News 11 did some digging and came up with new information about Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, and Wassim Mazloum. Federal agents linked the three men -- all of whom have Toledo ties -- to a terrorist plot. They appeared in federal courts in Toledo and Cleveland Tuesday on terrorism-related charges.
Amawi has dual citizenship in the US and in Jordan, where he was arrested. His last known address was an apartment near Hill Avenue in Toledo.
Amawi's brother, who does not want to be identified, said Mohammad is a talented artist and a sensitive man, not a terrorist. "We're going through a very, very difficult time," he said, "and I believe if my brother can hear my voice, keep the faith. They have nothing on him. I'm quite sure they have nothing. You're innocent."
Family members also say Mohammad worked as a travel agent at AZ Services and Travel in west Toledo. Justin Covyaw, manager of AZ Services and Travel, told News 11 Mohammad left the company in August 2005.
Marwan Othman El-Hindi is a naturalized US citizen, and is also from Jordan. The FBI says he was in the process of moving from a Mayo Street address to a home on Suder Avenue when he was arrested.
Beth Geer lives across the street from the Suder Avenue home. "You never know, I guess," she said. "You never know what your neighbor is going to be."
We've learned that El-Hindi was arrested in 2001 in Oregon, Ohio, for receiving stolen property after pills were stolen from a Kroger store. That charge was later dismissed.
News 11 also uncovered these facts: El-Hindi worked as an Imam, a Muslim cleric, at the Toledo Correctional Facility for three months in 2003 -- and a company called European Medical Studies and Services names El-Hindi as its CEO, and lists a post office box in Toledo. The FBI would not say if information from the company's Web site played a role in its investigation.
Neighbors say El-Hindi, his wife, and several children were mysterious. Beth Geer told News 11, "They didn't associate with anyone. The children didn't play with anyone. You very seldom saw them actually outside."
Wassim Mazloum is a student at the University of Toledo. He operates a car lot on Reynolds Road. The FBI believes the lot was a cover -- providing a way to travel to Iraq on so-called business. But investigators believe Mazloum was actually planning terrorist strikes with the other two men.
Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Wassim Mazloum are due back in a Toledo federal courtroom on Friday for a detention hearing. For now, the suspects are being held without bond.
Count on News 11 to bring you more information as this story develops.
---------------------------
Article published Wednesday, February 22, 2006
Family describes terrorist suspect as a sensitive artist
This drawing by Mohammad Zaki Amawi depicts an Arab woman in robes carrying a water vessel. The suspect's relatives say they have been devastated by the charges.
( THE BLADE/AMY E. VOIGT ) http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/NEWS16/602220369/-1/RSS
Zoom | Photo Reprints
By LUKE SHOCKMAN
BLADE STAFF WRITER
Clutching sketches that her son drew, the mother of Toledo terrorist suspect Mohammad Zaki Amawi tearfully defended him yesterday.
"He's a very sensitive boy. Never he have gun or anything," she sobbed in broken English as she showed the sketches of a woman drawn by her 26-year-old son. "If he see a sad movie, he start crying."
Another son, one of Mr. Amawi's brothers in a family of five boys, said the family has been devastated by the accusations.
"It's totally not true," he said of the charges in a federal indictment that Mr. Amawi plotted with two others to wage a "holy war" against U.S. soldiers.
Mr. Amawi's brother said he had no idea who the other two men identified in the indictment are.
"We don't know what to do," said the brother, who said he and his mother would not comment if their names were used. The family, who live near Hill Avenue and Reynolds Road in southwest Toledo, said they had no idea who to call, or if they needed an attorney.
The brother said the family learned of Mr. Amawi's arrest through the media. He said he last spoke by phone with his brother, who was in Jordan, on Friday and there was no indication anything was wrong.
Behind an apartment door with a heart-shaped "Welcome" sign, Mr. Amawi's brother, his mother, and two other women mingled. One of the women held a small boy who had a runny nose and smiled and chattered as the family spoke.
As he stood in the apartment, the brother said Mr. Amawi had moved to Jordan last year to find a wife and settle down. His brother hoped to start a business, possibly an Internet cafe, to make ends meet because he didn't think his artwork would pay the bills.
The brother said he assumed Mr. Amawi was still in Jordan, where the family's father also lives. But he said federal authorities told the family yesterday that Mr. Amawi had been arrested in Jordan and flown back to Cleveland.
Mr. Amawi's brother said his brother was born in Washington, and is an American citizen. The family lived in the Washington area for some time, but moved to Toledo about five years ago. He said his brother used to work at a travel agency in Toledo and at one time attended the University of Toledo.
"He's a good guy," he said of Mr. Amawi. "I'm really shocked [by the accusations]."
Nearby, at an apartment building where Mr. Amawi used to live, a former manager and now tenant of the building said she knew Mr. Amawi, whom authorities said was a citizen of Jordan as well as the United States who lived in Toledo before leaving for Jordan in August, 2005.
"He kept to himself. He was kind of quiet," said Lori Nungester. "He was kind of a strange bird. I did talk to him once and he got pretty upset about the war. He thought the whole thing was stupid."
That's true, Mr. Amawi's brother said. His brother did think the war in Iraq was a mistake. However, he said that doesn't mean his brother was a terrorist, just that he was opposed to the war.
There was no indication yesterday that Mr. Amawi had any prior criminal record. He was convicted of three traffic citations in Toledo Municipal Court: speeding violations in 2001 and 2005 and a motor vehicle and motorcycle brakes citation in 2001.
Contact Luke Shockman at:
lshockman@theblade.com
or 419-724-6084
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