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WHICH CREATION STORY?
Sullivan County Tenn ^ | Unknown | Rev. James W. Watkins

Posted on 01/22/2006 8:12:41 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez

Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?

For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.

The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.

The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.

Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.

In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!

So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bible; creation; crevolist; evolution; genesis; id; postedinwrongforum; religion
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To: Elsie
Well, it's a little more than an opinion, but here goes:

So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”  Luke 10:26-28

 

  1. No other Gods

  2. No graven images

  3. Don't take the name of the Lord in vain

  4. Keep the Sabbath

  5. Honor father & mother

  6. Don't  murder

  7. No adultery

  8. Don't steal

  9. Don't bear false witness

  10. No coveting other people's stuff.

  Does that answer it? I think I understood what you wanted to know.

481 posted on 01/26/2006 4:34:32 PM PST by SuzyQue
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To: Luis Gonzalez

The argument is not whether there are two distinct and separate accounts of Creation, at least not from me, but rather that what may appear to be two accounts of one incident (Creation) are two accounts of two incidents -- Creation of Earth and the men and women who populated it, and Creation of Eden (and its inhabitants).


I agree with that.


482 posted on 01/26/2006 4:37:08 PM PST by Creationist (If the earth is old show me your proof. Salvation from the judgment of your sins is free.)
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To: Junior
The only 'god' that seems reasonable to you is one you've conjured up in your mind. It seems that you've made your choice.


Joshua 24

15. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

483 posted on 01/26/2006 4:37:55 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Ken H

I've already answered this on another thread.

Yes,
Yes (maybe)


484 posted on 01/26/2006 4:43:23 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: papertyger

Why would the accuracy of Jesus' teachings be in any way diminished by whether or not the world was created in seven days? Frankly, IMO it wouldn't. Clearly, the New Testament is much more accurate than the Hebrew Bible. However, even the New Testament displays the author's biases. Each of the Gospels is geared toward a different community and has a slightly different take on Jesus' life.


485 posted on 01/26/2006 4:43:29 PM PST by Accygirl
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To: Ken H
Don't you think it is cruel to create feeling human beings, knowing that most of them would be tortured for all eternity?

HERE is the problem...


Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

Isaiah 55
1. "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
2. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
3. Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
4. See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
5. Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
6. Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

486 posted on 01/26/2006 4:57:34 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Creationist
"Now even if we said that
II Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day,
was true to the creation that would only add 6,000 years. But we most look at the next verse to understand the context.
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This not a statement about time and how God works. God is out side of time is not constrained by the physical laws of this universe (even though he created them). This verse is about how God is long-suffering to our evil ways our sinful nature. How he is patient towards us. How waiting one day for us to change is like a thousand years. And how in a thousand years the millions of lost souls seem to be but a day.

Who told you God is outside of time? You are the one holding God to physical laws by saying the days of creation are 24/7.

Now when and where does the Bible tell us when the 'souls' were created??? Adam was not alive until the breath of life = soul was breathed into his nostrils, yet nothing was said about the soul being apart of the days of creation?
487 posted on 01/26/2006 5:02:20 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Elsie
Two different ideas... The Hebrew Bible accurately reflects the life and times of the authors, but it doesn't accurately reflect the events. A scribe in Jerusalem during the late 8th century BCE wouldn't know anything about Abraham's life, but he likely thought to himself that Abraham must have lived alot like my nomadic constituents and therefore wrote Abraham's character as if he would be at home in "contemporary" Israelite surroundings.
488 posted on 01/26/2006 5:03:59 PM PST by Accygirl
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To: SuzyQue

Thanks for your response, but I just wonder why you added the 10?

Did Jesus ever say to keep the commandments?


489 posted on 01/26/2006 5:05:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
Elsie - this question is seriously asked - are you just looking for something to disagree with me about, or do you have some as-of-yet unstated fundamental difference with me? Since we don't even know each other, I find the latter hard to believe, but if so, tell me.

And, yes, Jesus did tell us to keep the Commandments. If you have a specific question about #10, go to Deuteronomy 5, and let me know specifically what your question is.
490 posted on 01/26/2006 5:14:39 PM PST by SuzyQue
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To: Elsie

"Did Jesus ever say to keep the commandments?"


You mean you do not know?


491 posted on 01/26/2006 5:14:43 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: XeniaSt
Only G-d knows whom He has chosen.

I thought the Bible said each individual makes that choice, and that only those who choose Christianity make it to Heaven. Haven't Jews made their choice?

492 posted on 01/26/2006 5:22:39 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Junior
YOUR STATEMENT-----or that pi = 3. I notice that whenever obvious Biblical errors come up, the apologists attempt to stretch reality to cover their beliefs.

My answer as I have been taught and checked.

I Kings 7 23-26
23. And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and the line of thirty cubit did compass it round about.
24. And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: and the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.
25. It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
26. And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

The answer is simple. The diameter of 10 cubits is from the outer rim to outer rim the way anyone would measure a circular object. The circumference of 30 cubits, however was of the inner circle, after subtracting the thickness of the brass ( two handbreadths-one for each side) from which the bowl was made this would e the number needed to calculate the volume of water.

Check for yourself.
substitute the length of your cubit (elbow to longest fingertip) for the letter C in the following formula, and solve for H (handbreadth)

30C / 3.14159 + 2H = 10C

The width of your handbreadth will be the result. For example my cubit is 20 inches long. If I had built the brass bowl, the inner diameter would have a circumference of 600 inches (30 x 20 inches) and a diameter of 190.986 inches (600 inches / 3.14159). The difference between the two diameter is 9.014 inches (two of my handbreadths).

Rest assured. God makes not mistakes, mathematical or otherwise. The Scriptures do not contain error. By the way Solomon built this sea in 1000 B.C., long before the Greeks rediscovered Pi. WE may not understand some things at first glance, but the problem is with us, not with the Bible. Please be sure you are on the solid foundation of God's Word, saved by the blood of Christ.

A second way to solve this supposed contradiction has also been proposed Since the Bible says the sea had a lip like the brim of a cup, the ten cubit measurement may have included the lip while the circumference be around the bowl without the lip.

answer from Seminar Notebook, Creation Seminar Series, by Dr. Kent Hovind.
493 posted on 01/26/2006 5:59:36 PM PST by Creationist (If the earth is old show me your proof. Salvation from the judgment of your sins is free.)
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To: Accygirl
A scribe in Jerusalem during the late 8th century BCE wouldn't know anything about Abraham's life...

How do you know this??

494 posted on 01/26/2006 6:58:48 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Just mythoughts
You mean you do not know?

Hold on. ;^)

495 posted on 01/26/2006 7:16:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: SuzyQue
No, I'm not just trying to be argumentative, but to get to a deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
 
 
 
And, yes, Jesus did tell us to keep the Commandments.
 
 
I asked about TEN, and you send me to Duet 5  (It's also in Ex 20)
 
I'll bet that the following verses make you think that the 10 extend to us today, don't you?
 
 

NIV Matthew 5:17-20
 17.  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
 18.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 19.  Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 20.  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 

 Could you consider the following for a moment?
 
 
 
NIV Matthew 19:16-26
 16.  Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
 17.  "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
 18.  "Which ones?" the man inquired.   Jesus replied, "`Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
 19.  honor your father and mother,'  and `love your neighbor as yourself.' "
 20.  "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
 21.  Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
 22.  When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23.  Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
 24.  Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 25.  When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
 26.  Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 
 
 
NIV Mark 10:17-28
 17.  As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 18.  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
 19.  You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
 20.  "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
 21.  Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 
 22.  At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23.  Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
 24.  The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is  to enter the kingdom of God!
 25.  It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 26.  The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
 27.  Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." 
 NIV Luke 18:18-27
 18.  A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 19.  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
 20.  You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
 21.  "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
 22.  When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
 23.  When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.
 24.  Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
 25.  Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 26.  Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
 27.  Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."


 Notice that Jesus ONLY mentioned FIVE of the Decalog and then told the rich young ruler that it STILL wasn't enough!
Strange comments if we are to keep the ten......
 
 
 
NIV John 8:1-12
 1.  But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
 2.  At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
 3.  The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
 4.  and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
 5.  In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
 6.  They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
 7.  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
 8.  Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
 9.  At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
 10.  Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
 11.  "No one, sir," she said.   "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." ----------
 
If the LAW was so important, why didn't JESUS stone this woman?  After all, He met the criteria he set forward: without sin.
Isn't the LAW to be 'obeyed' or not?
 
 
 
Now let's look at these verses.
 

NIV Matthew 22:34-41
 34.  Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
 35.  One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
 36.  "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
 37.  Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
 38.  This is the first and greatest commandment.
 39.  And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.'
 40.  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
NIV Mark 12:28-34
28.  One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
 29.  "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
 30.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
 31.  The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
 32.  "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
 33.  To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
 34.  When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
 
 
 
 
NIV John 13:34-35
 34.  "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
 35.  By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
 

NIV John 14:15
   "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
 

NIV John 14:21
   Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
 

NIV John 15:9-12
 9.  "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
 10.  If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
 11.  I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
 12.  My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
 

NIV John 15:17
   This is my command: Love each other.
 
 
 
NIV Matthew 28:19-20
 19.  Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in  the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 20.  and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
 
I think that Mt 28:20 is the one we are to follow now.

496 posted on 01/26/2006 7:47:57 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

RATS!

That was supposed to be a 3 column table and a 2 column one!

GRrrr.....

497 posted on 01/26/2006 7:49:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Just mythoughts
It is seems that you do not believe that the Bible is literal living word of God.

I am not stating anything that would not be known if one reads the Bible and takes it as a literal meaning. If you add up the generations up to Christ it is approximately 4000 years plus the 2000 since his Death Burial and Resurrections. If this is to be a literal meaning then the creation day of 24 hours is a literal meaning. If we must believe in the literal plan of salvation then the creation day of 24 hours is literal.
day = yowm in Hebrew = from an unused root mean. to be hot; as day (as the warm hours), (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next)

Satan the father of all deception will have this argument going until the Return of Jesus. At that time we all will find out the true answer to the question.

Philippians 2:12-13
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,-------work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Here is a solution to the supposed contradictions from a creation seminar book by Dr. Kent Hovind.

1. Genesis 1:11 has the trees made on day 3 before man;
Genesis 2:8 has the trees made on day 6 after man.
2. Genesis 1:20 has birds made out of the water on day 5;
Genesis 2:19 has birds made out of the ground (after man) on day 6.
3. Genesis 1:24,25 has the animals made on day 6 before man; Genesis 2:19 has the animals made of day 6 after man.

A careful reading of the two chapters will show the solution for each of the supposed contradictions.

1.
a. Chapter 1 tells the entire story in the order it happened.
b. Genesis 2:4-6 gives a quick summary of the first five days of creation.
c. Genesis 2:7-25 is describing only the events that took place on day 6 in the Garden of Eden.
d. The trees described in Genesis 2:8 are only in the Garden (the rest of the world is already full of trees from day 3). The purpose of this second creation of trees may have been to let Adam see that God did have power to create, that He was not just taking credit for the existing world. Notice that the second creation of trees was still on day 6 and was only those trees that are "pleasant to the sight and good for food."

2.
The birds created out of the ground on day 6 are only one of each "kind" so that Adam can name them and select a wife. The rest of the world is full of birds from day 5.

3.
Genesis 2:19 is describing only the animals created n the Garden, after man. The purpose of this second batch of animals being created was so that Adam could name them (Genesis 2:19) and select a wife (Genesis 2:20). Adam did not find a suitable one (God knew he wouldn't), so God made Eve (Genesis 2:21-22).
There are no contradictions between these two chapters. Chapter 2 only describes in more detail the events in the Garden of Eden on day 6. If ancient man had written the Bible (as some scoffers say), he would never have made it say that the light was made before the sun! Many ancient cultures worshiped the sun as the source of life. God is light. God made the light before He made the sun so we could see that He (not the sun) is the source of life.

May God Bless you.
498 posted on 01/26/2006 8:30:59 PM PST by Creationist (If the earth is old show me your proof. Salvation from the judgment of your sins is free.)
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To: Creationist
I do not know Dr. Kent Hovind, but his story has a big problem in that it does not fit with the rest of the Bible.

Now if you want to believe the days of creation are 24/7 not much anyone is going to do about that. And if you want to believe that all peoples came from two people then that is your choice.
499 posted on 01/27/2006 12:11:16 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Elsie

You sound like a scripture lawyer.


500 posted on 01/27/2006 12:13:31 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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