Posted on 01/22/2006 8:12:41 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez
Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?
For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.
The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.
The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.
Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.
In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!
So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"
So, you claim to believe in a God that can create everything out of nothing, but then you turn around and place limitations on His power?
If He willed it so, plants would live without Sun and water.
Your mind cannot possible understand the complexity of Creation enough to decide what things could happen, and what things could not.
If you could do that, you'd be a God yourself.
"There are no errors in the Bible. Just because a man interprets what is read in a particular way does not mean the Bible is wrong. There are no errors in the Bible only errors in the way men interpret"
"I believe that the old English of the KJV Bible has the best translation to the original Hebrew and Greek text, for English reading persons."
So, if errors could only be differences in interpretation, and the KJV is a translation/interpretation, then you acknowledge the very real possibility of errors in the KJV.
| MM - I like the way you think, and I usually find myself agreeing with you and being enlightened by your ideas, so I hope you'll accept one small idea from me:
It seems to me that Jesus was not interested in exclusivity in his teachings. Sounds like a bit of PC there. Jesus was inclusive in many things, but downright close-minded in a few. In fact, reactionary, in that he insisted that people follow the basic rules as instructed by God. He wasn't very concerned about many of the process kind of issues, circumcision, offerings, mixed fabrics, Gentiles, etc., but he was very definite on the basics - the condition of our souls. "Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat." Matthew 7:13 |
What are they, in your opinion.
Matthew 2312. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Matthew 23 1011. "Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12. As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
15. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
16. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17. "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
18. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20. for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Does punishment have to be eternal? Why should anyone suffer for eternity for crimes committed during a brief lifetime? Does that sound like justice to you?
Same thing, just reworded.
Elsie, I don't read your posts, I have a Bible all of my own.
To go about proving that what the Bible says is true by quoting the Bible is absurd.
It sort of makes God look like a petty, vindictive character, doesn't it? And, if God is truly all powerful, a little sin isn't going to bother Him in the least. Indeed, for there to be no sin, there can be no difference of opinion in the afterlife, which means God prefers His followers to be mindless drones who will unquestioningly go along with The Program.
Not if He would condemn me to eternal torment for a measley 72 years of error. That's not love, unless one is a sociopath.
I'm sorry, but the more I delve into it, the more the Christian (or Moslem) concepts of the Almighty appear twisted and full of contradictions. For instance, Jesus died for all mankind's sins, but only those who are willing to basically enslave themselves to Him are actually cleansed. Do you see the contradiction here? Do you also see the parallels between these concepts and the concepts of communism? In the former you enslave yourself to God; in the latter to the State. In neither system are you actually free and sovereign. You can bleat to the hills that you are free under God, but it simply is not so. If you act on your freedom you are condemned to eternal torment.
The Khmer Rouge followed a harsh brand of communism, killing nearly two million people in their bid to return Cambodia to Year Zero. Now they have a new faith: evangelical Christianity.
Hundreds of former fighters have been baptised in the past year. The Khmer Rouge's mountain stronghold, the town of Pailin in south-west Cambodia, has four churches, all with pastors and growing congregations. At least 2,000 of those who followed Pol Pot, the guerrillas' former leader who died six years ago, now worship Jesus.
Many new converts were involved in the bloody battles, massacres and forced labour programmes that led to the Killing Fields. [end excerpt]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1254908/posts
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Do the ex-Khmer murderers, if their faith is sincere, go to Heaven?
Given that most of the Khmer victims were not Christian, do they go to Hell forever?
I am not enslaved.
I can see you are still working through it all.
Ill pray you will continue "delving into it".
1-yes.
2-yes.
Are Jews who have not converted going to Hell as well?
yes.
did you have more of these or do you just like me listing off all non-christian groups.
if you have a point...get to it quick
My point is, a literal reading of the Bible means that an all-knowing God created living, feeling beings, knowing full well that most of them would be tortured for all eternity. Seems hateful beyond all imagining, IMO.
If youre angry or confused about it...God can handle it.
Tell him about it.
Pray to him that he'll help you understand.
If you are actually wanting an answer and an understanding of the "why" about it...even get bold enough to visit a local church.
Its the dichotomy of believers and nonbeleivers...I "get it" and others are on their journey deciding about it.
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