Raising the volume on what men think about feminism

The Age ^ | Sushi Das

[nickcarraway]

SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.

'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."

If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.

Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"

And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."

The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.

I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.

In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,

but how many can really be blamed on feminism?

Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.

On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.

Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.

Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.

With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."

[John O]

I can't tell you how wrong you are. My wife was 30 when we married, and the last 15 years have simply rocked. Shelf life my ass.

Let me explain more clearly then. If a man desires to have chidlren (as I do) then the upper limit cutoff for potential mates is about 35. Child bearing gets much more risky after that with greater incidence of birth defects etc.

I am sure that someone who has all the kids they want would be thrilled with the right older woman (as you are) but most men looking to marry are looking for family and children.

That's why the women in the 30 to 40 age range are getting so desparate. Men in the 30 to 40 age range can easily marry someone in the 20 to 30 range who still has plenty of child bearing years left. So younger wins out.

Increasingly rare is the woman who can have both a career and a family as most men want wives and mothers for their children, not business partners.

[phil1750]

Ten reasons men prefer guns over women...


#10. You can trade an old 44 for a new 22.

#9. You can keep one gun at home and have another
for when you're on the road.

#8. If you admire a friend's gun and tell him so, he will
probably let you try it out a few times.

#7. Your primary gun doesn't mind if you keep another
gun for a backup.

#6. Your gun will stay with you even if you run out of ammo.

#5. A gun doesn't take up a lot of closet space.

#4. Guns function normally every day of the month.

#3. A gun doesn't ask, "Do these new grips make me look fat?"

#2. A gun doesn't mind if you go to sleep after you use it.

And the number one reason a gun is favored over a woman....

#1. YOU CAN BUY A SILENCER!!

[TC Rider]

Someone tastes like raw fish?

[luckystarmom]

I wanted to get married straight out of college. I just wanted to get my degree and get married. I had one boyfriend propose to me when we were juniors. I told him that we should wait for an engagement until we knew when we were going to graduate. We had both switched majors, and we were going to take longer than 4 years to graduate.

Thank God, I didn't accept the engagement. Over the summer, he decided he didn't want to date an old 22 year old. He wanted to date an incoming 18 year old freshman.

After that, if men found out that I was interested in marriage, they backed off. If I even mentioned that I wanted to get married and have kids, then I was shunned. Most of the men in their 20s didn't want to have anything to do with marriage.

Thank God, I finally met my husband in my late 20s. He wanted a nice conservative woman. He didn't care that I had worked longer than him, and that I made more money than him. He treated me with lots of respect, and we've been married for 15 years.

I just worry now about my nieces that are in their 20s. One of them has been out of college for 2 years, and she has to work a lot to pay for rent of her apartment and other necessities. The other one is about to graduate.

Men in their twenties need to step up the plate and start having real meaningful relationships with women in the 20s. Then they can get married and have babies.

[Lucky Dog]

But that is another issue.

Actually, isn’t really another issue. It is “part and parcel” of the same issue.

In my rather long, previous rant, I had stated: “…the fact that militant feminists demand that requirement-justified and objectively verifiable, physical standards for some jobs be lowered or eliminated…” In my estimate, the majority of the career fields in military that feminists have demanded be opened to women are so opened at the expense of losing valuable capability in that career field or of unacceptably increase risk to the female occupants of those career fields and/or decreased unit morale, cohesion and effectiveness.

Unfortunately, the proverbial “train has already left the station” on this issue. Consequently, I fear that there will eventually be a terrible price paid in both “blood and treasure” for this asinine bit of politically correct, militant feminism.

[antceecee]

" The fact is that men and women need each other and are incomplete without each other."

Very beautifully said.

[RinaseaofDs]

Feminism is kinda cute, economically.

Ford tried something like this in the 1980's: "We're crap, but we're American - so buy us."

We, of course, did nothing of the sort. We looked overseas to customers willing to put a good product on the showfloor.

Feminism is the same type of marketing. They're the same suppliers courting the exact same customers, but are so contemptuous of the buyer that they have quit trying.

Better to do your thing, move to Costa Rica, and settle down with people free from all of the popular, anti-White, anti-Male, anti-American biases. Australia's pretty great too. Women there are lovely and happy to be happy - just happy sharing life with somebody. Amazing people, them.

Women are too lazy to look overseas, and men there are looking to rent, not own.

[luckystarmom]

Equality means that you share the responsibilities equally. It means that you may change the tires while your wife cooks the dinners. It doesn't mean that you sit there on the sofa with the remote control while your wife cooks, cleans, takes care of the kids,and does the laundry (all at the same time).

[RinaseaofDs]

brilliant.

[John O]

If this is not women bashing, objectifying and hatred, then what is it?

Truth.

Sometimes the truth is not pleasant for some people. Please see my prior post to melas defining shelf life a little better.

I tend to be a traditionalist. I am looking for a wife who will be my love, my partner in the home, the mother of my children. I am not looking for another wage earner (that's my job) or for someone whose 'career' comes before me and the kids. I intend to treat her like a queen (as I did my late wife) and expect her to treat me like a king.

[winner3000]

Globalization is going to be the downfall of extreme feminism. More and more American men will choose to marry women from traditional values countries. Darwin will win again as shrill feminists will not propagate their caustic genes.

[luckystarmom]

You won't get married either to a nice conservative woman with that kind of behavior.

My husband told me that he knew I was the girl for him on our first date. This is the reason. He opened the car door for me. Instead of just sitting there, I leaned over and unlocked the door for him. He was nice to me, and I was nice to him.

We've been married for almost 15 years. He was talking the other day that maybe we should have another marriage ceremony with our kids. I said I would love to have one on the beach in Hawaii with just us and our kids. It would be lovely.

[HairOfTheDog]

A feminist has come to common terms with nothing other than an unrealistic set of expectations

So they have become the sort of person who looks for brides overseas ;~D

I'll agree that feminism has lost its way, much in the same way that other minority rights activists have lost their way. They both fought a real demon once, but they are unwilling to admit the ground that needed to be won has been won, and they should now go home. They now continue to prolong and in some cases invent new controversies to stay relevant. They are having a hard time finding troops who will buy into their new goals.

My concern is that as long as the feminist movement exists, there will be a counter movement among FReeper men that is equally and oppositely destructive to our political goals because it drives women away. We are a party that has respect for Laura Bush, Ann Coulter and Condi Rice, three very different women who each have a place at our table, each according to their own merit. Women are necessary and the anger and unrealistic expectations of some are limiting our cause.

[luckystarmom]

My brother was the one of my siblings who got married the youngest and had kids the youngest. He had kids in his early twenties. However, he won't be a granddad because he died of cancer.

My parents had me when they were in their 30s, and they're still alive enjoying my kids.

Having kids early does not mean you'll be a grandparent.

[texan75010]

As a man who is about to marry for the second time, both my ex and my current wife-to-be are over 40. Both have kept themselves in shape and are attractive. As a man, it was the outward appearance of both of these women that initially attracted me. Both of them were seeking someone who made them feel secure and outward appearance meant little to them (thank God!)

Men want looks, women want security. Thus Anna Nicole marries a geezer.

Call me a hater or basher, but a slim figure and attractive face is what does it for me. I don't care if she flips burgers at Sonic. If a woman has doubled her body weight since her 20th birthday, cut her hair shorter than mine and has a uni-brow, I simply do not wish to engage in an intimate relationship with her.

Because of that, I am an objectifying pig. OK, fine. Blame your lack of personal self control and lack of femininity on me all you want...but it still wont get you a date.

Is it any wonder why most feminists are fat ugly women who find it easier to hate and be bitter than to make themselves attractive for men?

If I had no job and lived with my mom would I be right to be bitter towards women because they wouldn't date a loser like that? Isn't that a bit of a double standard?

[John O]

She says that any 20 year old claims that she's dating a 40 year old for any reason other than security is a liar.

And since security and being a good provider for the children is one of the things that women have traditionally looked for in a husband that's a good thing. If it wasn't no engineer would ever get married. (We make lousy boyfriends but great husbands)

[sauropod]

Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them.

Oh, great. Everybody's a victim.

Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Perhaps it is women obsessing about womyn.

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out.

Ok. You are a brainless gynocratic twit that thinks entirely too much of your gender. How's that?

[NathanR]

Of course not! Nothing is certain in this life. However, the earlier you start, the greater the chance you will be able to enjoy your grandkids.

[HairOfTheDog]

I love it when people use anonymous forums to say all the things good manners and normal polite decency should tell him to keep to himself.

[luckystarmom]

Where does personality and brains fit into all of this?

I understand dating someone that is cute, but I don't understand marrying someone just because of their looks.

I dated lots of good looking men (some better looking than my husband was). However, I married a man that had something more.

I know my husband dated plenty of attractive women, but he says they were too liberal for him. He married me because I was conservative and smart.