Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
As for me though, I don't "tell her" anything - I just silently don't open doors for women, nor do I stand up for them on the bus, or engage in any other number of chivalrous behaviours.
Like you said, women wanted "equality". And now, they've got it. In spades. How happy they must be!
And she's wasted the prime of her child bearing years chasing a 'career' that has no probable value to a man who wants to get married anyway. Women have a shelf life
If this is not women bashing, objectifying and hatred, then what is it?
I think it's nasty stereotypes that make the men look overseas in the first place.
And I wouldn't overstate this trend. While many of us know some anecdotal example of men seeking overseas females, they are only a statistical few, and the ones I know are men who have a hard time getting a woman here to pay attention to them, or want a woman that is a Golden Retriever with less body hair. I'd be curious to see the long term success they have in getting it and having these marriages work. I peripherally only know one such man, and he's on his fourth.
"Increasingly American men marry women from a traditional society such as Japan, Korea or Saudi Arabia. Perhaps there is a message there."
Yes.... and the message is that some men are in for a big honkin' surprise when they see how fast these women adjust to American life. ;-D
It's.... pointing out the blindingly obvious. Women have a "shelf life", in that their marriageability declines sharply after ~35 or so - how many womens' first marriages occur when they're over the age of 35?
See my post #53 for further elaboration.
LOL!
Like the Rumanian chick I met the other day....married for her green card and now is divorced and on the prowl. Scary chick....I liked her >:>
Huh - If I'm holding a door and someone's coming, I hold it open to be polite, whether it's a man or a woman.
I guess if you want to castigate basic male biology as "women bashing" and "hatred," you can, but it's not going to accomplish much. Feminist rhetoric won't change male biology.
But that's the problem, looking overseas for a wife imposes its own frictional costs, things like languages and expense. In other words, men have to be forced to look overseas.
And I wouldn't overstate this trend. While many of us know some anecdotal example of men seeking overseas females, they are only a statistical few
The proportion of American-foreign marriages is dwarfed by purely domestic marriages, yes. What is important though, is the trend - overall marriage rates are dropping in the US (in most of the Anglosphere, actually), but the rates of American-foreign marriages are rising (i.e. the rate of purely-domestic marriages is falling even faster, and being propped up by the increasing rate of American-foreign marriages).
My wife feels the need to point out (via my post) that men are most attractive in their 20's and 30's as well. She says that any 20 year old claims that she's dating a 40 year old for any reason other than security is a liar.
I would disagree. I would say that 90% of those who are looking overseas are social misfits who failed miserably in the American market. The vast majority are seeking out of desperation because American women have rejected them in the dating market.
What an idiot I must be. I open doors for everyone. Men, women, children, it doesn't matter. I'll stop to help anyone with a flat as well, regardless of gender or age.
Physically, that's probably true. But I think women prioritize physical appearance a bit lower than men do, when they decide what they think is "attractive" about a potential mate.
I'll agree that relationships in this country have never been harder to make last for the long haul. I'll also agree that there are a lot of people that are really screwed up in the head about what makes them work. I just don't agree that men who are unwilling to learn how to make relationships work with women in this country will have any long term success in finding a woman overseas either. Eventually reality sets in and even the foreign bride talks out of turn and he has to deal with it. "Those who have used the mail-order bride route to find a mate have control in mind more than a loving, enduring relationship." (THE "MAIL-ORDER BRIDE" INDUSTRY AND ITS IMPACT ON U.S. IMMIGRATION - INS Reports and Studies
On the positive side, I think there's a lot of great men, and great women in this country. We're in a state of flux now, and it is true that people of both genders fail to keep committments as well as our parents did, and our parents failed more often than their parents. Perhaps the natural byproduct of freedom for all, men and women, in this country is that we will have to learn better how to relate to a spouse that is truely free. We better, because I don't predict a return to the days of old.
Very true.
In America's case, the feminist tsunami has caused women to remove THEMSELVES from the naturally ordained role of perpetuating the population.
The same argument is made against allowing women into military combat. A woman is at least 100 times more "valuable" than a man is in the business of re-populating a society in case of war.
But that is another issue.
I was trying to be more diplomatic, but I can agree from my own experience with such arrangements.
Having had great success with the opposite sex, I can say categorically that I haven't the slightest idea what women look for. I never lacked for dates, while good friends who I considered not only better looking, but better people couldn't grab a woman's attention with lighter fluid and matches.
These are some of the sorts of guys who look overseas for a wife.
"Feminists don't have relationships with men, only other feminists."
I don't buy even that much. A feminist has come to common terms with nothing other than an unrealistic set of expectations, and an overdeveloped appreciation of their own capabilities.
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