Grim Iraq reality dawns for Bush

Washington Post, via The Standard (Hong Kong) ^ | August 16, 2005 | Robin Wright and Ellen Knickmeyer

[Brigadier]

``We set out to establish a democracy, but we're slowly realizing we will have some form of Islamic republic,'' said another US official familiar with policymaking from the beginning.

[FightThePower!]

The US was better off with Sadam.

[RedEyeJack]

If we established a police state like Saddam's we could probably suppress the terrorists... In fact, like Saddam we could eliminate anyone who opposed us and I am sure if we killed a few hundred thousand, like he did, we could get most of them... I think that is not where we are trying to go...

As far as electricity, fuel and jobs... please provide your data on generating capacity under Saddam (pick any year you choose) and current capacity also, Saddam's plan to improve capacity and current plans to improve. As I under stand the history, if you were a Ba'athist (usually a Sunni) or part of Saddam's Trikiti mafia you got as much power as you needed. Everybody else got it when it was available... Pretty much the same with fuel, only Saddam's repression pretty much prevented saboteurs from disrupting flow. As far as unemployment... Not counting former Ba'athists I suspect the unemployment rate is not too bad for a country that has had the disruptions caused by a major war and an outgoing anarchist terror campaign.

[Mrs.Nooseman]

How so?

[reagan_fanatic]

I don't know why you waste your time here toiling in relative obscurity when, with your obviously superior intellect and ability to know all the answers to everything, you aren't applying for the job of Secretary of Defense or running for President.

Heaven knows you could do a much better job than Bush ever could.

[Republicanus_Tyrannus]

"The people of Iraq were better off with Saddam than they will be under this "new democracy". "

Your position cannot be let unchallenged. However, I must let a better writer excoriate you and your sick statements.

Bill Whittle wrote:

So why -- someone? anyone? – why do otherwise intelligent and educated people so despise and detest American society, which has achieved more in the way of individual rights, science, arts, medicine, diversity, cooperation and prosperity than any other in history? Why would they oppose such a society when it is trying to bring these blessings to people who have spent thirty years cowering in dark places, fearful of letting the slightest word slip, or betraying their entire family with an askew glance or unguarded moment? Why would someone so viciously oppose freeing a People who have lived for a generation in total, abject fear?

It’s because they have never lived it. That is what I mean when I say reality has left their building. How many people would be opposing the war in Iraq if they had to watch, actually witness, three or four hundred thousand people being shot in the head in front of their families? At the rate of one life taken every single second, with one unique and irreplaceable person being extinguished every tick of the 60 Minutes stopwatch, going without sleep or rest, you would be at it for three and a half days. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Every face unique, every one someone’s son or mother or precious grandchild. Bang. Bang. Bang. All night and all day, every second for three and a half days. How long to wipe out your entire family? Four seconds? Eight? Thirteen? We have found that many in Iraq, more will follow, believe me.

How many children – four or five year old boys and girls – do you need to see raped in front of you before you change your mind about Iraq? Fifty? Fifty thousand? Will that make a dent in your stainless steel belief system? How many cries for mercy in the muffled corridors of prison basements? Ten thousand? Ten times ten thousand? They were there. They happened.

They just didn’t happen to you. Not in Berkeley. Not in Manhattan. Not in Santa Monica, or at Columbia University. Not in your Sanctuary. If they did we wouldn’t be having this discussion, would we? You’d be dead, and it would be your relatives begging for good and powerful people to come to their rescue to stop this horror.

There’s nothing “progressive” about what these people believe. It is refined selfishness and moral cowardice. I can understand not wanting to go overseas and lose blood and treasure to solve other people’s problems. I can at least understand that. But these “progressives” should be thanking whatever they take to be sacred – which is nothing – and hit their knees in gratitude that better, braver people have built them the kind of Sanctuary where torture and state-sponsored murder are so far from their closed eyes that even the act of imagining such horrors is beyond them.

How far from the reality of human nature do you have to be to see our culture as a curse on the Earth, rather than being the only ones willing to roll up our sleeves, shoot the wolves that are eating our kids, go out into the blizzard to collect some firewood and then paint the goddam house?

[RnMomof7]

The ONLY threat that Saddam was, was to Bush Sr that he hated. Tell that to Kuwait. The reason that we invaded Iraq was because Saddam violated the terms of the cease fire after we kicked his raping, looting, and murdering army out of Kuwait. Today the country is overwhelmed with terrorists that are MOTIVATED by our presence in the mid east.
It is not "overwhelmed with terrorists". They are not fighting because WE are there; they are fighting because they are no longer in control of the government, and they want that control back.

Who is THEY?. We have been told in briefings that 'new' terrorists are coming in from the 'porous' borders. So they are not all Iraqis at least that is what the military has told us. The Iraqis LOVE us, it is the foreign forces causing a 'problem'

Is our government lying?

It is more a Terrorists training ground now than ever before. WE gave them motivation.
That is absolute nonsense. The people of Iraq are sick of the terrorists. You need to get your information from somebody other than Teddy Kennedy.

Wait I thought you just said that the ones killing Americans were people (Iraqis) wanting their control back

Which is it are they Iraqis that love us or foreigners that hate us coming into Iraq?

I have heard they do not know if "elections' in Afghanistan can be held as planned because of all the NEW foreign terrorists flooding in there. You heard this where? You need to stop listening to the "voices" in your head.

Well we will see wont we ( I heard that on MSNBC I believe..remember they have already been delayed once ) But we will soon see shall we not?

The bloody war continues there, and the Taliban is still present. So we will see shortly how stable" a democracy" our blood and dollars bought

Bush has opened a Pandora's box, and try as he may I do not think he will be able to stuff it all back in. We are now between a rock and hard place, staying is a catastrophe and leaving would be unthinkable because of what we will leave behind.
Get back on your meds. Staying is not a "catastrophe", it is necessary until the Iraqis can take care of themselves. That time is getting ever closer. Leaving right now would be unthinkable, because we would be leaving the Iraqi people at the mercy of their neighbors. Those neighbors are the ones supplying the arms, funding, and personnel for terrorism.

I think if your unarmored jeep is blown up and you loose both your legs you MIGHT think it is a catastrophe.

So now we threaten Iran with the military option.
Iran is attempting to build nuclear weapons for the specific purpose of attacking Israel and the US. They have made this very clear. If they continue to pursue this course, they will likely face the military option.

But notice we use a carrot with the crazy man in N Korea and a stick with the people of Iran

"A double minded man is UNSTABLE in all his ways "

[MNJohnnie]

We set out to establish a democracy, but we're slowly realizing we will have some form of Islamic republic,'' said another US official familiar with policymaking from the beginning

Ah yes the famous "Undisclosed sources". Funny how these same sources were wrong on Afghanistan and have been wrong every time for the last 3 years on Iraq.

But that is all right, it will just be funnier when reality smack the knee jerk Bush haters on the Hysteric Left, and the Isolationist Right, square in the face.

[MNJohnnie]

Islam is a cancer on any society it touches


Explain Turkey and Indonesia then please.

[swarthyguy]

>>maybe the President needs to stop holding hands with the Saudis on his ranch and launch a rocket their way instead

Now, now, just because they killed 3000 in broad daylight on a bright cheerful morning is no reason to seek vengeance.

Goose, golden eggs on a gravy train.

[Dane]

This thread is about the decision to go to war in Iraq, not about securing the southern border of the US. Do try to focus.(skeeter)

I'm keeping that quote, with YOUR name on it, so I can use it on the THOUSANDS of other threads that are turned into border threads(howlin)

LOL!

Skeets and his gang are in the box now.

Ole joe and todd would be having kneption fits.

[MadIvan]

Ah yes, all of Satan's familiars gathered together - Islamists, leftists, David Duke, Fred Phelps and Buchananites who want to stamp their little feet and support Pitchfork Pat's antiwar stance.

It's amazing how bastards coalesce, like turds floating in a toilet bowl.

Regards, Ivan

[MNJohnnie]

Sorry, infrequent poster who wasn't aware of (or had forgotten) that rule. Just wanted to rub the noses of the Neocons in the mess they've made at the cost of thousands of lives.


Ah yes the "ignore the problem and it will go away" ideas of the Isolationist Right sure worked really well for the Clinton Administration.

You do remember what happened 9-11-01?

[jaguaretype]

"How many family members do YOU have CURRENTLY in the military? In Iraq ?"

"And you have sent how many of your loved ones over there?"

1..... 4 times now lady.

And it would not matter if i had 3 or 25 serving family members (or whatever you allege in your case.)

You mimic the tired old mantra of " your opinion is worthless unless you have direct experience with the issue at hand".

[MNJohnnie]

The people of Iraq were better off with Saddam than they will be under this "new democracy".


Ah yes the Rape Rooms, the Torture chambers, the mass graves. The invading Iran and Kuwait. The perpetual US/British force "containing" Iraq. Sure those were the days.

I cannot decide which is more amusing, your ignorance or your arrogance.

[AppyPappy]

If we gave them the motivation, how do you account for the fact that they were there BEFORE us?

I have no problem with the idea of Iraq being a terrorist honeypot.

[roses of sharon]

Really?

Which of the 6000 princes ordered OBL and Atta?

[MNJohnnie]

>>maybe the President needs to stop holding hands with the Saudis on his ranch and launch a rocket their way instead


Isn't it amazing how blood thirsty the Isolationist Right is! Funny how they want us fighting everyone BUT the Terrorists in Iraq.

[cambridge]

"I think if your unarmored jeep is blown up and you loose both your legs you MIGHT think it is a catastrophe."

Now you can read the minds of soldiers who put their lives on the line for your freedoms and you're saying they think it's a lost cause that was never worth fighting? Funny how so few them seem to use their own, less than supernatural abilities to state that point of view.

[MNJohnnie]

But notice we use a carrot with the crazy man in N Korea and a stick with the people of Iran

You seem vastly uninformed about reality. We have used NEITHER on EITHER as of yet.

[metesky]

But it all depends on the creep of Islam.

I thought Big Mo was long dead.
:O)