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Grim Iraq reality dawns for Bush
Washington Post, via The Standard (Hong Kong) ^ | August 16, 2005 | Robin Wright and Ellen Knickmeyer

Posted on 08/16/2005 7:13:40 AM PDT by Brigadier

``We set out to establish a democracy, but we're slowly realizing we will have some form of Islamic republic,'' said another US official familiar with policymaking from the beginning.

(Excerpt) Read more at thestandard.com.hk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: antisemite; bastards; bitterpaleos; buchananite; bush; cheney; closetleftists; dumbass; ezrapoundbrigade; fools; handwringers; idiots; jewhater; lewserbrigade; lordhawhawbrigade; morons; nitwits; peaceniks; perle; raimondobrigade; scumbags; sobranbrigade; tokyorosebrigade; traitors; warmongers; williamjoycebrigade; wlofowitz; wolfowitz
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To: KevinDavis

bttt


101 posted on 08/16/2005 8:54:43 AM PDT by Txsleuth (Germaine Brousard: She deserves a medal for what she does for the troops!)
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To: RnMomof7
If you remember at the time Saddam said he believed that he has US permission to do that .

Oh, and we can surely believe Sadaam, can't we?

The Reagan administration made political calculations because of the threat that Iran posed to the region.. The fact that we kept Sadaam supplied during his war with Iran kept them BOTH off the backs of others in the region for at least 10 years. It was only when he decided that he needed to be 'Supreme Caliph' of Iraq and Kuwait that he was taken down a peg or two. He then ignored the terms from the end of Gulf War I, and was starting to be more friendly to the Islamic terrorists that had plagued the Middle East for the last 30 years.

102 posted on 08/16/2005 8:54:49 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: cambridge
I believe Sheehan has a tent and some fine, homemade granola for folk just like you.

And you have sent how many of your loved ones over there?

My interest is in the political resolution of this in a way that leaves a remnant of stability in that region, that does not give space or reason for more US hatred.

What I see in the White House is bravado and denial. I am not calling for an immediate withdrawal of American troops. I am asking for an honest assessment and a plan built on that

At least if this article is true SOMEONE is looking at things as they are, not as the propaganda machine wants us to think

103 posted on 08/16/2005 8:54:50 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: johnb838

"Are there any functioning "democracies" in the world? I don't know of any"

America is not a democracy? News to me.


104 posted on 08/16/2005 8:55:07 AM PDT by cambridge ( I was sympathetic to her before I was against her.)
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To: RnMomof7
The people of Iraq were better off with Saddam than they will be under this "new democracy".

I am aghast at your outrageous stupidity.

So, you're saying that rape cells, mass graveyards, torture, and living under a fascist dictatorship with all the terror and hell that entails is better than a republic?

You're insane. Outrageously insane or ignorant to a degree that is inconceivable. Stop Posting.

105 posted on 08/16/2005 8:55:33 AM PDT by Republicanus_Tyrannus
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To: RnMomof7; All

You are also calling for a isolationist policy which never works..


106 posted on 08/16/2005 8:56:17 AM PDT by KevinDavis (the space/future belongs to the eagles --> http://www.cafepress.com/kevinspace1)
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To: coconutt2000

"Do we really need to question their nationalism any further"

yes. the whole purpose of the mission is dependant upon it. lip service to nationality doesnt do the trick. the the article is making a case that democracy is not in the offing and the best we can hope for is a framework where democracy may, some time in the future develop. for now, be happy with an islamic republic. see my post #31. if there were truly an "iraqism", all would want a government which reflects the needs and interests of all the parties without favoring anyone faction. the system of leadership selection would determine who is the dominant party. religious factionalism and peoples who relate more to smaller centers of power such as a the local or regional shiekh or ayatollah doesnt bode well for democratic republicanism. what you are likely seeing is people wanting to be police because its a job that pays, risk or no risk. yes, they have a common interest in peace and tranquility but only if their faction gets to set the rules. western democratic government is the best form of govt for people who respect each others rights. for those who have no tradition of respecting other's rights but has a tradition of dominating others by class, tribe and religious faction the half and half solution may be the only possible outcome, at least for now. maybe you will be right one day. whether you live long enough to see it, that is the question.


107 posted on 08/16/2005 8:57:09 AM PDT by APRPEH (vision in the middle east without proper sunglasses results in blindness)
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To: RnMomof7
And you have sent how many of your loved ones over there?

Irrelevant. No one has been sent who didn't have some idea that they might have to go. This is a VOLUNTEER force. Those who are from the Reserves may not like that their day to day lives have changed considerably, but they signed up for that, too, and have been happily collecting their reservist pay from the military up to the point where they WERE needed.

108 posted on 08/16/2005 8:58:01 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: RnMomof7

Are you suggesting the troops don't believe in their mission? Or that we should undermine them from home?

I guess the first would be marginally better, but it's not something I believe to be true.


109 posted on 08/16/2005 8:58:24 AM PDT by cambridge ( I was sympathetic to her before I was against her.)
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To: doug from upland
I guess that pretty much says all we need to know about him.

It definitely says a lot. That very small fringe group of so-called "paleo-conservatives" have proven themselves to be hate-America-firsters.

While opposition to war before it starts is part of normal debate and is acceptable, once the first shot is fired at an American, it is a fight. There are only two sides, America's side and our enemy's side. There is no middle ground. These people are on the enemy's side.

The "paleos" don't care that the only right way to end a war is to win it. They don't want us to win. They want America to lose. This, along with their unjustified hatred for Israel, is what they have in common with the terrorists.
110 posted on 08/16/2005 9:00:20 AM PDT by advance_copy (Stand for life, or nothing at all)
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To: RnMomof7

Of course I meant Kuwait, but you knew what I meant.


111 posted on 08/16/2005 9:02:18 AM PDT by Howlin
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To: RnMomof7
We have a history of doing what we think is in the US best interest and having it explode in our face

Post-WWII Japan, and the European continent would disagree with you. This all has to do with the concept of preemption...and actually...preemption has nothing to do with our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan because of events on 9/11/2001. REMEMBER THAT? (of course, if you have gotten drunk on the leftist Kool-Aid about, how, all of a sudden, Iraq has NEVER had any ties with terrorism or Al-Queda since Republicans got into office....you'll discount that) but, at any rate, preemption would have saved lives (in retrospect) in 1939 Germany and Japan, 1947 USSR, Korea, Vietnam, and China. (MacArthur was right BTW.) and its saving American lives now. At any rate...doing nothing is never a solution. If terrorism is going to exist in this world...I'd rather it happen in the desert of Iraq where the terrorist are fighting soldiers with superior discipline and superior firepower...instead of, say seeing my son blown to pieces from a car bomb in a local mall parking lot.

112 posted on 08/16/2005 9:04:14 AM PDT by BureaucratusMaximus (The function of socialism is to raise suffering to a higher level.)
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To: Tempest

Heh. It's Bay, of course!


113 posted on 08/16/2005 9:04:39 AM PDT by Howlin
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To: RnMomof7
Oops ,my bad on exaggerating the numbers,but that still doesn't take away from the fact that he killed his own people and refutes your Deanian statement ,that the people over in Iraq were better off with Saddam.
114 posted on 08/16/2005 9:04:46 AM PDT by Mrs.Nooseman
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To: RnMomof7
They did not have Fundamentalist terrorists running through their streets killing innocent men , women and children.

They didn't need terrorists to kill them; Saddam and his people were doing a marvelous job of that themselves.

They had electricity,fuel and jobs.

Ummm, not to the degree they do now. Have you been paying attention?

115 posted on 08/16/2005 9:06:06 AM PDT by TChris ("You tweachewous miscweant!" - Elmer Fudd)
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To: RnMomof7
Frans van Anraat, a Dutch businessman who is on trial right now in the Netherlands for genocide charges, he sold Saddam 538 tons of TDG, ie, mustard gas, that he used on his own.

The US gov took part in his arrest. The US gov investigated many US companies for violating laws concerning WMD capabilities, all thru the late 80s and 90s.

He lived in Iraq for 14 years under the name of Faris Mansoor Rashid al-Bazas, and fled to Syria after the invasion. Ck out how many worldwide co were shut down and exposed, just for context, which you do not get at DU.

And btw, cold war alliances were important, you should study the dangers of communism.

Read up about it, and while your at it, read up about the Islamic cults that were roaming the globe for decades, murdering innocents with impunity, while the evil George Bush was but a teenager!
116 posted on 08/16/2005 9:06:31 AM PDT by roses of sharon
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To: Brigadier
Unintended consequences are a b***h.

1) It ain't over yet.
2) Even if this attempt to bring democracy to Iraq were to fail, you never know until you try.
3) There were other benefits to this endeavor than just democracy in Iraq.

But at least no Neocons had to die...

What in the hell does that mean?
117 posted on 08/16/2005 9:07:19 AM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Republicanus_Tyrannus

For liberals, history begins when they wake up in the morning.


118 posted on 08/16/2005 9:08:47 AM PDT by roses of sharon
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To: APRPEH

You're overly pessimistic...

I pointed out that Iraqis are joining their military, their police force, and espousing opinions that indicate a strong sense of national identity, yet you seem bent on believing that they consider themselves a province of a nonexistent caliphate. The evidence to the contrary of your opinion is glaring, and you refuse to recognize that only a minority of Iraqis believe in the extremist version of Islam.

You would of course argue that all believers of Islam are extremists, and to a point you may be right. But not all believers of Islam fully subscribe to all the tenets of their faith. Many ignore the extremist and violent tenets because those beliefs are decidedly uncomfortable for anybody who wants to live a peaceful and hopefully prosperous life.

The evidence is there if you're willing to really look beyond the Muslim veil and see that they are really just people, pretty much like you and me. The fact that they are mostly dominated by a violent and aggressive religion is more reason to hope that our mission over there succeeds in spades. Iraq was a mostly oppressive, mostly secular country, with the clerics holding very little political power. Iraq today is somewhat less secular than while under Saddam, but it displays a variety of religious thought that would be impossible elsewhere... even here in the U.S.

From the forge of Iraq, I'm hoping a new emphasis on the less violent aspects of Islam will emerge, with a greater degree of tolerance and recognition of human rights, regardless of race, creed, or gender.

As for Iraq as a nation, I think you're set on imagining they are not nationalistic, even as the strong nationalistic impulse drives large numbers of Iraqis into dangerous positions in their security forces. The very act of waiting in line at a police recruiting center is dangerous, yet there are long lines. When interviewed, many voice patriotic sentiments. They want to fight for Iraq, and they'll fight the Iraqi and foreign terrorists who want to subjugate and destroy their fledgling democracy. If that isn't nationalism, I don't know what is.


119 posted on 08/16/2005 9:10:21 AM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: RnMomof7

Hello!!!!

Are you series?????

This is FreeRepublic you are on.

Not Bartcop / Moveon etc... different login, different site.

"They did not have Fundamentalist terrorists running through their streets killing innocent men , women and children.They had electricity,fuel and jobs .

When this new "democracy" comes into being the women will be chattel property with few if any rights."

Your (and brigadier's) stealthlike tenure on this board is likely the only reason that I cannot get in before the deserved zot.


120 posted on 08/16/2005 9:10:53 AM PDT by jaguaretype
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