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To: coconutt2000

"Do we really need to question their nationalism any further"

yes. the whole purpose of the mission is dependant upon it. lip service to nationality doesnt do the trick. the the article is making a case that democracy is not in the offing and the best we can hope for is a framework where democracy may, some time in the future develop. for now, be happy with an islamic republic. see my post #31. if there were truly an "iraqism", all would want a government which reflects the needs and interests of all the parties without favoring anyone faction. the system of leadership selection would determine who is the dominant party. religious factionalism and peoples who relate more to smaller centers of power such as a the local or regional shiekh or ayatollah doesnt bode well for democratic republicanism. what you are likely seeing is people wanting to be police because its a job that pays, risk or no risk. yes, they have a common interest in peace and tranquility but only if their faction gets to set the rules. western democratic government is the best form of govt for people who respect each others rights. for those who have no tradition of respecting other's rights but has a tradition of dominating others by class, tribe and religious faction the half and half solution may be the only possible outcome, at least for now. maybe you will be right one day. whether you live long enough to see it, that is the question.


107 posted on 08/16/2005 8:57:09 AM PDT by APRPEH (vision in the middle east without proper sunglasses results in blindness)
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To: APRPEH

You're overly pessimistic...

I pointed out that Iraqis are joining their military, their police force, and espousing opinions that indicate a strong sense of national identity, yet you seem bent on believing that they consider themselves a province of a nonexistent caliphate. The evidence to the contrary of your opinion is glaring, and you refuse to recognize that only a minority of Iraqis believe in the extremist version of Islam.

You would of course argue that all believers of Islam are extremists, and to a point you may be right. But not all believers of Islam fully subscribe to all the tenets of their faith. Many ignore the extremist and violent tenets because those beliefs are decidedly uncomfortable for anybody who wants to live a peaceful and hopefully prosperous life.

The evidence is there if you're willing to really look beyond the Muslim veil and see that they are really just people, pretty much like you and me. The fact that they are mostly dominated by a violent and aggressive religion is more reason to hope that our mission over there succeeds in spades. Iraq was a mostly oppressive, mostly secular country, with the clerics holding very little political power. Iraq today is somewhat less secular than while under Saddam, but it displays a variety of religious thought that would be impossible elsewhere... even here in the U.S.

From the forge of Iraq, I'm hoping a new emphasis on the less violent aspects of Islam will emerge, with a greater degree of tolerance and recognition of human rights, regardless of race, creed, or gender.

As for Iraq as a nation, I think you're set on imagining they are not nationalistic, even as the strong nationalistic impulse drives large numbers of Iraqis into dangerous positions in their security forces. The very act of waiting in line at a police recruiting center is dangerous, yet there are long lines. When interviewed, many voice patriotic sentiments. They want to fight for Iraq, and they'll fight the Iraqi and foreign terrorists who want to subjugate and destroy their fledgling democracy. If that isn't nationalism, I don't know what is.


119 posted on 08/16/2005 9:10:21 AM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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