FINAL CAFTA VOTE ROLL CALL - How did your Congressman Vote?

CongressionalRecord ^

[Happy2BMe]

FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 443(Republicans in roman; Democrats in italic; Independents underlined)
      H R 3045      RECORDED VOTE      28-Jul-2005      12:03 AM
      QUESTION:  On Passage
      BILL TITLE: Dominican Republic-Central America-United States Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act

	Ayes	Noes	PRES	NV
Republican	202	27		2
Democratic	15	187
Independent		1
TOTALS	217	215		2

---- AYES    217 ---

Aderholt Akin Alexander Bachus Baker Barrett (SC) Bartlett (MD) Barton (TX) Bass Bean Beauprez Biggert Bilirakis Bishop (UT) Blackburn Blunt Boehlert Boehner Bonilla Bonner Bono Boozman Bradley (NH) Brady (TX) Brown (SC) Brown-Waite, Ginny Burgess Burton (IN) Buyer Calvert Camp Cannon Cantor Carter Castle Chabot Chocola Cole (OK) Conaway Cooper Cox Crenshaw Cuellar Culberson Cunningham Davis (KY) Davis, Tom Deal (GA) DeLay Dent Diaz-Balart, L. Diaz-Balart, M. Dicks Doolittle Drake Dreier Duncan Ehlers Emerson English (PA) Everett Feeney Ferguson Fitzpatrick (PA) Flake Foley Forbes Fortenberry Fossella Franks (AZ) Frelinghuysen Gallegly Gerlach

Gibbons Gilchrest Gillmor Gingrey Gohmert Goodlatte Granger Graves Green (WI) Hall Harris Hart Hastert Hastings (WA) Hayes Hayworth Hefley Hensarling Herger Hinojosa Hobson Hoekstra Hulshof Hyde Inglis (SC) Issa Istook Jefferson Jenkins Johnson (CT) Johnson (IL) Johnson, Sam Keller Kelly Kennedy (MN) King (IA) King (NY) Kingston Kirk Kline Knollenberg Kolbe Kuhl (NY) LaHood Latham LaTourette Leach Lewis (CA) Lewis (KY) Linder Lucas Lungren, Daniel E. Manzullo Marchant Matheson McCaul (TX) McCrery McKeon McMorris Meeks (NY) Mica Miller (FL) Miller, Gary Moore (KS) Moran (KS) Moran (VA) Murphy Musgrave Myrick Neugebauer Northup Nunes Nussle

Ortiz Osborne Oxley Pearce Pence Peterson (PA) Petri Pickering Pitts Platts Poe Pombo Porter Price (GA) Pryce (OH) Putnam Radanovich Ramstad Regula Reichert Renzi Reynolds Rogers (AL) Rogers (KY) Rogers (MI) Rohrabacher Ros-Lehtinen Royce Ryan (WI) Ryun (KS) Saxton Schwarz (MI) Sensenbrenner Sessions Shadegg Shaw Shays Sherwood Shimkus Shuster Skelton Smith (TX) Snyder Sodrel Souder Stearns Sullivan Sweeney Tanner Terry Thomas Thornberry Tiahrt Tiberi Towns Turner Upton Walden (OR) Walsh Wamp Weldon (FL) Weldon (PA) Weller Westmoreland Whitfield Wicker Wilson (NM) Wilson (SC) Wolf Young (AK) Young (FL)

---- NOES    215 ---

Abercrombie Ackerman Allen Andrews Baca Baird Baldwin Barrow Becerra Berkley Berman Berry Bishop (GA) Bishop (NY) Blumenauer Boren Boswell Boucher Boustany Boyd Brady (PA) Brown (OH) Brown, Corrine Butterfield Capito Capps Capuano Cardin Cardoza Carnahan Carson Case Chandler Clay Cleaver Clyburn Coble Conyers Costa Costello Cramer Crowley Cubin Cummings Davis (AL) Davis (CA) Davis (FL) Davis (IL) Davis (TN) DeFazio DeGette Delahunt DeLauro Dingell Doggett Doyle Edwards Emanuel Engel Eshoo Etheridge Evans Farr Fattah Filner Ford Foxx Frank (MA) Garrett (NJ) Gonzalez Goode Gordon

Green, Al Green, Gene Grijalva Gutierrez Gutknecht Harman Hastings (FL) Herseth Higgins Hinchey Holden Holt Honda Hooley Hostettler Hoyer Hunter Inslee Israel Jackson (IL) Jackson-Lee (TX) Jindal Johnson, E. B. Jones (NC) Jones (OH) Kanjorski Kaptur Kennedy (RI) Kildee Kilpatrick (MI) Kind Kucinich Langevin Lantos Larsen (WA) Larson (CT) Lee Levin Lewis (GA) Lipinski LoBiondo Lofgren, Zoe Lowey Lynch Mack Maloney Markey Marshall Matsui McCarthy McCollum (MN) McCotter McDermott McGovern McHenry McHugh McIntyre McKinney McNulty Meehan Meek (FL) Melancon Menendez Michaud Millender-McDonald Miller (MI) Miller (NC) Miller, George Mollohan Moore (WI) Murtha Nadler

Napolitano Neal (MA) Ney Norwood Oberstar Obey Olver Otter Owens Pallone Pascrell Pastor Paul Payne Pelosi Peterson (MN) Pomeroy Price (NC) Rahall Rangel Rehberg Reyes Ross Rothman Roybal-Allard Ruppersberger Rush Ryan (OH) Sabo Salazar Sánchez, Linda T. Sanchez, Loretta Sanders Schakowsky Schiff Schwartz (PA) Scott (GA) Scott (VA) Serrano Sherman Simmons Simpson Slaughter Smith (NJ) Smith (WA) Solis Spratt Stark Strickland Stupak Tancredo Tauscher Taylor (MS) Thompson (CA) Thompson (MS) Tierney Udall (CO) Udall (NM) Van Hollen Velázquez Visclosky Wasserman Schultz Waters Watson Watt Waxman Weiner Wexler Woolsey Wu Wynn

---- NOT VOTING    2 ---

Davis, Jo Ann

Taylor (NC)

---

[Alberta's Child]

IT personnel and services.

I understand that this sector has seen substantial job losses in the last few years, but I have a hard time seeing these losses as a symbol of some kind of economic distress when this "industry" barely even existed 20 years ago. In fact, after the job losses in this sector from 2001-2005 employment levels have pretty much returned to their level of the mid-1990s before Y2K and the dot-com bubble drove IT employment and salaries to levels that simply could not be sustained over time.

I disagree. Unregulated, you are correct, the end result is inevitable; just like me playing in traffic will result in my death. Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean that it's desirable. If I have decided that something is not desirable, I take steps to prevent it. In this case, I get up on the sidewalk. If someone else has a conflicting desire, and takes steps to affect the outcome (i.e. they swerve up onto the sidewalk) I can rightfully say that it is wrong.

I don't mean that outsourcing and job losses are inevitable; I'm talking about the inevitability of these things in order to meet the growing (often unrealistic) expectations of a modern, affluent society. Here's a little exercise for you to illustrate my point:

1. Think of a specific task that you do on a regular basis around your house -- or that you once did on a regular basis. One that immediately comes to mind is washing the car or mowing the lawn.

2. Ask yourself how much you would be willing to pay someone to do this task for you. Write this number down in whatever units you deem appropriate ($X per hour, per task, etc.).

3. Now ask yourself how much you would charge someone else if you were to do it for THEM. Write this number down using the same units that you used in #2.

If you answered these questions honestly, I can guarantee you that the dollar value you wrote down for Item #3 is higher -- probably much higher -- than the dollar value you wrote down for Item #2. And that simple fact is precisely how we've gotten to where we are now. Everyone wants to be a millionaire, but nobody is willing to pay the price of products or services made by millionaires. This is why so many of our jobs have been moved overseas, and why so many jobs right here in the U.S. are filled by illegal immigrants. We simply don't want to pay "American" prices for the products and services we use every day, but we insist on believing that we can charge "American" prices for the products and services we produce every day. That's really all there is to it, and as long as we insist on maintaining this illusion of affluence we are going to be facing the same recurring dilemma.

[jpsb]

"Now please provide me with an example, still thinking? Take your time.

[ran15]

They could make a new message board, www.moonbatrepublic.com.

[Alberta's Child]

Dumping is a tried and true method of making tons of money and a huge profit.

I don't think so. There hasn't been a successful application of this strategy in my lifetime, if ever. The Rockefeller example isn't a good one, since his overall "success" was more a function of his criminal activities than anything else -- including bribery of public officials, industrial espionage, sabotage, violations of Federal railroad regulations, etc.

[Alberta's Child]

Unfortunately we impose most of these sad @ssed ideas on ourselves because the eventual goal of government is a one world government with total control over the populations.

That was exactly my point.

[hedgetrimmer]

CAFTA, in my humble opinion, is an economic affirmative action program.

An apt description.

[jpsb]

I can do nothing about the way you think, but dumping does work, if it is targeted towards a market that one can capiture (drive competitors out) and then be milked of a profit. Numerious examples abound, John D being the most famious, Japan used the tactic with success in taking over the consummer electronics industry in the usa. Profits at home subsidizes market take over abroad, tried and almost repeated with auto's in the 80's, China is doing the same today.

[BushisTheMan]

good one...logic doesn't interfere with their thought process I see. Same for a few on the anti-Pakistani threads.

[Egon]

...I have a hard time seeing these losses as a symbol of some kind of economic distress when this "industry" barely even existed 20 years ago.

Arguably, the outsourcing problem has grown exponentially worse over the last 40 years. Taken in that context, the IT example gains credibility. The employment figures that you're seeing, I believe, are skewed in that most of the recovery from lay-offs have been with outsourced personnel. I was around before the "bubble" burst, and after. The people that were around before are not similar to the people that are here now-- although the numbers are finally comparable.

...I'm talking about the inevitability of these things in order to meet the growing (often unrealistic) expectations of a modern, affluent society. Here's a little exercise for you to illustrate my point:

Excellent example. It came out exactly as you described, and illustrates your point beautifully.

...but I'm not disagreeing with your point. I'm saying that it's not necessarily desirable.

I understand that growing affluence is going to naturally lead to some of the more mundane jobs being outsourced. My argument is that the rate that these jobs are being outsourced is outstripping their shelf-life-- and it ain't just the "mundane" ones, either.. Replacement industries aren't cropping up fast enough to keep pace.

Like you stated, I believe it's pregressing at an unrealistic (and harmful) pace.

[Czar]

As did mine. A so called conservative.

[TheSpottedOwl]

It does seem that certain factions have infiltrated popular conservative message boards. The way they worship the party line gets a little disgusting. They think the government will take care of them, always. Well the USSC just came right out and told us that we don't have any property rights, if someone comes along and offers them more for our land. I noticed most of the usual suspects stayed off those threads.

I registered Republican on my 18th birthday, and have voted in all but one major election since then. 99% of my votes went to Republicans, and I am pissed off!

[TheSpottedOwl]

Moonbatrepublic has a nice ring to it. How about www.sheeptotheslaughter.whoops?

[ohioWfan]

You gotta love the histrionics around here, don't you?

I'm going into my closet and digging up my rags so I can wear them tomorrow when the economy falls through the floor and the bread lines start forming....... ;)

[ohioWfan]

Paul always falls on the conservative side of the issue.

Which is why he's teamed up with Dennis Kucinich on the Iraq war.

A veritable paragon of conservatism if there ever was one..............

And YOU agree with Denny on that too, don't you, Mr I-am-the-most-conservative-person-in-the-world?

You and Ron....ALWAYS on the conservative side of the issues............NOT!

[Dat Mon]

YOU SAID..."Everyone wants to be a millionaire, but nobody is willing to pay the price of products or services made by millionaires. This is why so many of our jobs have been moved overseas, and why so many jobs right here in the U.S. are filled by illegal immigrants. We simply don't want to pay "American" prices for the products and services we use every day, but we insist on believing that we can charge "American" prices for the products and services we produce every day"

Interesting post and comments....good point of discussion.

Lets take Case A.
In this case...ALL products and services consumed by Americans are produced or provided by Americans...ie.. little or no free trade. Conjecture what the median wealth level of an American family would be...normalize it to 1.0.

Now take the other extreme...Case C.
Here..practically all of the goods and services consumed by Americans are provided by offshore labor which is cheap...or by importation of non-native guest workers or illegals who are also cheap. Now guess what the mean wealth level of an American family is....its a tricky question. Think its greater or less than 1?

Now consider a median Case B...here some jobs are outsourced or utilize cheap seasonal workers...but others remain within America. Conjecture what the median wealth level is here. It obviously depends on what percentage of jobs move offshore or utilize guest workers....and the nature of the displaced jobs. What would you guess the best case is relative to Case A?

My rationale in questioning the prevailing wisdom of global free trade with this discussion is basically this....

IMO, if you were to plot the mean wealth of an average American family vs the percentage of American jobs outsourced to either foreign located workers or local guest workers you would get...a highly nonlinear curve....a camels hump of sorts...it may even have more than one hump.

At some point on this curve...corresponding to a condition somewhere between Case A and Case B...there is a point of maximum efficiency and wealth creation. Some folks may feel it is close to Case A..others may feel it is closer to Case B.

Do you honestly think it represents Case C...some on this forum apparently think so. At this extrapolated limit...nobody in this country would work...except for government mandated workers, politicians, and trial lawyers.

With this highly non-linear relationship...the idea that the more jobs we outsource the more money we make applies over a limited range...around the maximum of the curve, but NOT BEYOND IT...which is usually the case for nonlinear equations.

Now the real question to be answered over the next couple years.. when our trade in goods and services with China, NAFTA, and now CAFTA accumulates...is where exactly are we now on this nonlinear curve?

Have we reached the peak of the curve already...and are we now on the downside?

I hope this concept is clear...it is in my mind one of the key concept of global free trade that needs to be studied.

Its a concept put forward by an engineer...not an economist.

[pctech]

GATT, NAFTA, and now CAFTA are bad for the United States. CAFTA just made it even easier for companies to leave the country. We are becoming a nation of "the served" instead of a country of those "who serve."

This bill is bad for america and the GOP who sold out their country ought to be recalled and this bill taken to the courts to overthrow.

[international american]

: )

[international american]

"I registered Republican on my 18th birthday, and have voted in all but one major election since then. 99% of my votes went to Republicans, and I am pissed off!"

Same here. Registered Mar.23,1972 at 18 and have voted straight Republican since. And I am REALLY pissed off !!

[TheeOhioInfidel]

"3 million jobs": How many of those jobs are in service sector like Wal-Mart or high tech industries that have little to do with NAFTA.

"5% unemployment rate:" Where are you getting your facts? A large percentage of unemployed people are not even counted because they're too proud to collect from the govt. And outsourced workers are notreally kept accurate count of.

So now the selling point is protecting Cent. Amer. from Chinese communist influence. Who the hell has been empowering China economically anyway? What a bunch of hypocrites we have in office. This isn't about horse and buggy vs. progress. It's more about the cheapest available labor - wherever it may be - vs. empowering us domestically in order to trade from a position of strength.


So now the selling point

[Alberta's Child]

Japan used the tactic with success in taking over the consummer electronics industry in the usa. Profits at home subsidizes market take over abroad, tried and almost repeated with auto's in the 80's . . .

In order to make a compelling case along these lines you've got to provide some documented evidence that Japanese companies were selling electronics and/or autos in the U.S. for less than it cost to produce. Autos are a terrible example in any case, since this was one industry where the Japanese had no need to "dump" product in the U.S. market. By the mid 1980s many U.S. consumers were willing to pay more for a Japanese car than for an American one -- simply because by that time the quality of the Japanese car was far superior.