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To: Egon
IT personnel and services.

I understand that this sector has seen substantial job losses in the last few years, but I have a hard time seeing these losses as a symbol of some kind of economic distress when this "industry" barely even existed 20 years ago. In fact, after the job losses in this sector from 2001-2005 employment levels have pretty much returned to their level of the mid-1990s before Y2K and the dot-com bubble drove IT employment and salaries to levels that simply could not be sustained over time.

I disagree. Unregulated, you are correct, the end result is inevitable; just like me playing in traffic will result in my death. Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean that it's desirable. If I have decided that something is not desirable, I take steps to prevent it. In this case, I get up on the sidewalk. If someone else has a conflicting desire, and takes steps to affect the outcome (i.e. they swerve up onto the sidewalk) I can rightfully say that it is wrong.

I don't mean that outsourcing and job losses are inevitable; I'm talking about the inevitability of these things in order to meet the growing (often unrealistic) expectations of a modern, affluent society. Here's a little exercise for you to illustrate my point:

1. Think of a specific task that you do on a regular basis around your house -- or that you once did on a regular basis. One that immediately comes to mind is washing the car or mowing the lawn.

2. Ask yourself how much you would be willing to pay someone to do this task for you. Write this number down in whatever units you deem appropriate ($X per hour, per task, etc.).

3. Now ask yourself how much you would charge someone else if you were to do it for THEM. Write this number down using the same units that you used in #2.

If you answered these questions honestly, I can guarantee you that the dollar value you wrote down for Item #3 is higher -- probably much higher -- than the dollar value you wrote down for Item #2. And that simple fact is precisely how we've gotten to where we are now. Everyone wants to be a millionaire, but nobody is willing to pay the price of products or services made by millionaires. This is why so many of our jobs have been moved overseas, and why so many jobs right here in the U.S. are filled by illegal immigrants. We simply don't want to pay "American" prices for the products and services we use every day, but we insist on believing that we can charge "American" prices for the products and services we produce every day. That's really all there is to it, and as long as we insist on maintaining this illusion of affluence we are going to be facing the same recurring dilemma.

281 posted on 07/28/2005 1:46:45 PM PDT by Alberta's Child (I ain't got a dime, but what I got is mine. I ain't rich, but Lord I'm free.)
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To: Alberta's Child
...I have a hard time seeing these losses as a symbol of some kind of economic distress when this "industry" barely even existed 20 years ago.

Arguably, the outsourcing problem has grown exponentially worse over the last 40 years. Taken in that context, the IT example gains credibility. The employment figures that you're seeing, I believe, are skewed in that most of the recovery from lay-offs have been with outsourced personnel. I was around before the "bubble" burst, and after. The people that were around before are not similar to the people that are here now-- although the numbers are finally comparable.

...I'm talking about the inevitability of these things in order to meet the growing (often unrealistic) expectations of a modern, affluent society. Here's a little exercise for you to illustrate my point:

Excellent example. It came out exactly as you described, and illustrates your point beautifully.

...but I'm not disagreeing with your point. I'm saying that it's not necessarily desirable.

I understand that growing affluence is going to naturally lead to some of the more mundane jobs being outsourced. My argument is that the rate that these jobs are being outsourced is outstripping their shelf-life-- and it ain't just the "mundane" ones, either.. Replacement industries aren't cropping up fast enough to keep pace.

Like you stated, I believe it's pregressing at an unrealistic (and harmful) pace.

289 posted on 07/28/2005 2:10:32 PM PDT by Egon (By the way, I took the liberty of fertilizing your caviar.)
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To: Alberta's Child; hedgetrimmer; jpsb; Paul Ross; GOP_1900AD; indthkr; Toddsterpatriot; ...
YOU SAID..."Everyone wants to be a millionaire, but nobody is willing to pay the price of products or services made by millionaires. This is why so many of our jobs have been moved overseas, and why so many jobs right here in the U.S. are filled by illegal immigrants. We simply don't want to pay "American" prices for the products and services we use every day, but we insist on believing that we can charge "American" prices for the products and services we produce every day"

Interesting post and comments....good point of discussion.

Lets take Case A.
In this case...ALL products and services consumed by Americans are produced or provided by Americans...ie.. little or no free trade. Conjecture what the median wealth level of an American family would be...normalize it to 1.0.

Now take the other extreme...Case C.
Here..practically all of the goods and services consumed by Americans are provided by offshore labor which is cheap...or by importation of non-native guest workers or illegals who are also cheap. Now guess what the mean wealth level of an American family is....its a tricky question. Think its greater or less than 1?

Now consider a median Case B...here some jobs are outsourced or utilize cheap seasonal workers...but others remain within America. Conjecture what the median wealth level is here. It obviously depends on what percentage of jobs move offshore or utilize guest workers....and the nature of the displaced jobs. What would you guess the best case is relative to Case A?

My rationale in questioning the prevailing wisdom of global free trade with this discussion is basically this....

IMO, if you were to plot the mean wealth of an average American family vs the percentage of American jobs outsourced to either foreign located workers or local guest workers you would get...a highly nonlinear curve....a camels hump of sorts...it may even have more than one hump.

At some point on this curve...corresponding to a condition somewhere between Case A and Case B...there is a point of maximum efficiency and wealth creation. Some folks may feel it is close to Case A..others may feel it is closer to Case B.

Do you honestly think it represents Case C...some on this forum apparently think so. At this extrapolated limit...nobody in this country would work...except for government mandated workers, politicians, and trial lawyers.

With this highly non-linear relationship...the idea that the more jobs we outsource the more money we make applies over a limited range...around the maximum of the curve, but NOT BEYOND IT...which is usually the case for nonlinear equations.

Now the real question to be answered over the next couple years.. when our trade in goods and services with China, NAFTA, and now CAFTA accumulates...is where exactly are we now on this nonlinear curve?

Have we reached the peak of the curve already...and are we now on the downside?

I hope this concept is clear...it is in my mind one of the key concept of global free trade that needs to be studied.

Its a concept put forward by an engineer...not an economist.
295 posted on 07/28/2005 2:49:19 PM PDT by Dat Mon (still lookin for a good one....tagline)
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