Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
Actually the agnostic would not be certain there really is a candy bar.
I think that is because most of the Catholic rituals, rights, and icons do not come from the Bible.
"Holy Eucharist" and "Holy Sacraments" are not biblical terms and are not found in the bible. These Catholic riturals do not come from the bible.
Is there anything in the Bible to back up this Catholic dogma?
Jesus also said "I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he trims clean so that it will be even more fruitful." (John 15:1)
If I use your logic, Jesus was actually a vine and God the Father actually cut off parts of Jesus - it was not an analogy. Many of Jesus' teachings were done by analogy/allegory
Transubstantiation does not come from the bible, it was invented by men of the Catholic Church.
Who declared the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy around 500 AD? And what is your evidence for this claim?
-A8
"Sola Scriptura" is one of Satan's lies. So is schism. In the Nicene Creed, we say that we believe in "unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam" (one, holy, catholic and apostolic church). Those who do not believe in one Church, cannot affirm the Nicene Creed. Nor can those who do not believe in the *Apostolic* Church, the one in organic continuity with the Apostles. Anybody can have a meeting and call it "church" (which the Fathers called "unauthorized gatherings"), but the Apostolic Church is the organic body with organic connections to the Apostles. Those "churches" without Apostolic orders, i.e. without duly ordained bishops or priests whose orders extend back to the Apostles themselves, cannot affirm the Nicene Creed.
Idolatory and paganism are not part of Catholic doctrine. If you actually took time to study the Catholic Catechism, you would know this. At the root of your position is "sola scriptura". That is what leads so many people astray. Sola scriptura is Satan's clever trick, because by it one can really be one's own authority (since one gets to determine how Scripture is interpreted, and what books belong to the Bible, etc.), and not have to submit to God's appointed authority. That is why there are around 30,000 Protestant denominations. If you want to know why sola scriptura is wrong, read Not by Scripture Alone: A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, edited by Robert A. Sungenis (who studied at Westminster Theological Seminary, a conservative Presbyterian seminary, before becoming a Catholic).
-A8
Is your disagreement about the time and nature of Mary's sanctification worth being separated from the Church? It doesn't seem so to me. The point seems amost trivial in comparison to the importance of being joined to the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
-A8
Yes, Jesus received flesh from Mary. How do we know that? Because, for example, Christ was the Son of David, and Mary was of the house of David. If you read Anselm, for example, you see that the human race is organically connected. All were in Adam, (though not as individuals, of course). In order to save the human race, it would not have been enough for Christ to be made [de novo] a human being, and then live perfectly, and then die on the cross. Christ had to be a member of the human race, descended from Adam. In order to save Adam's race, Christ had to be from Adam. If Christ's human body had been made directly from dust, He could not have been saved Adam's race, for He would not have been one of us. He had to be one of us, in order to save us.
-A8
-A8
I agree that anything these philosophers say that is false should not be believed by Christians (or anyone else, for that matter). But it is also the case that anything these philosophers say that is true should be believed by Christians (or anyone else, for that matter).
-A8
I never claimed or implied that a child sins by being born. However, as Paul teaches in Romans 5, and as the Church has always taught, in opposition to Pelagian heretics, babies are born with original sin, on account of Adam's sin. If Christ had been born with original sin, then Christ Himself would have needed redemption from sin. But the Redeemer cannot Himself need Redemption. Therefore, Christ could not have been born with original sin. Hence, two things were necessary: (1) Christ had to be conceived by the Holy Ghost (Joseph could not have Christ's biological father) and (2) Mary had to be sinless, so as to contribute sinless flesh to the incarnate Christ, to be woven together in her womb.
-A8
See Not by Scripture Alone: A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura edited by Robert A. Sungenis.
-A8
I respect that you hold the beliefs that you hold. However, as I study God's Word, there has only been one sinless person, Jesus Christ, God who was pleased to dwell with us in the flesh.
Robert A. Sungenis
A neutral source? I can point you to books and articles written by converted priests, but I don't think you would find them compelling.
Sure cuts down on the time spent thinking independantly, doesn't it.....
Matthew 26
1. When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples,
2. "As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."NIV Matthew 26:16-18
16. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
17. On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
18. He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, `The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'"NIV Matthew 26:19-32
19. So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.
20. When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve.
21. And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."
22. They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?"
23. Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.
24. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
25. Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
26. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
29. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
30. When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31. Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
32. But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."
NIV Exodus 12:3-27
3. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household.
4. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat.
5. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats.
6. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.
7. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs.
8. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast.
9. Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts.
10. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it.
11. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD's Passover.
12. "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.
13. The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.
14. "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD--a lasting ordinance.
15. For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel.
16. On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do.
17. "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
18. In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day.
19. For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born.
20. Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."
21. Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb.
22. Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning.
23. When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.
24. "Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants.
25. When you enter the land that the LORD will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony.
26. And when your children ask you, `What does this ceremony mean to you?'
27. then tell them, `It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.'" Then the people bowed down and worshiped.
Matthew 2626. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
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