Posted on 12/23/2004 7:40:45 AM PST by Ernie.cal
I have read many messages which object to same-sex marriage but I am still waiting to learn what specific adverse consequences opponents of gay marriage anticipate to result from its legalization.
In other words, suppose same-sex marriage becomes law during 2005. By 2010 or 2015 what specific indisputable adverse consequences to society do opponents predict to occur?
With respect to those critics of same-sex marriage who refer to "God's law" and "procreation" --- do they believe that heterosexual couples who cannot have children, or who do not wish to have children, should also NOT be allowed to marry?
The essence of a free society is choice---including the option of choosing private behavior that does not cause harm to another person. The alternative is coercion, i.e. using the coercive (and punitive) power of government through laws, bureaucrats, and police to dictate what choices are permissible.
Do opponents of same-sex marriage propose that our society should begin identifying areas where choices involving human intimacy should be regulated by government entities and thus dilute our commitment to the values inherent in a free society?
Women in their 50's and even in their 60's have given birth, so age would not be an reliable indicator. And how would anybody know whether either the man or the woman who wished to marry each other had ever had surgery that would prevent that couple from producing a child?
Look, marriage for the church and marriage for the state are totally different animals. Church marriages are about sanctity and tradition and what have you. In the eyes of the state, marriage is a contract that confers rights, privileges and obligations on the parties. The role of the state is to certify and hold parties liable to their contracts. If two (or more) competent adults willingly enter into a contract, why should I care? It's when you set up the state to be some kind of nanny to judge the morality of its citizens, THAT'S the threat to society.
And yes, I am married. And my marriage has never been affected by gays marrying in SF, or by Elizabeth Taylor getting divorced for the 8th time or by Britney Spears getting married for 36 hours. Why do you care?
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question and post your feelings on this matter.
Certainly not but you don't need the cattle prod to engage in considered debate. Ernie ignores me, thus the prod.
GAY BROTHERS: How many gay brothers do you suppose there are in our country? If they ALL decided to marry, what adverse consequence do you anticipate occurring?
A lot of lonely sisters in West Virginia & Arkansas.
ADOPTIONS: If a gay couple provides a loving, caring, nurturing home -- why is that a problem for you?
Two words: Michael Jackson.
INSURANCE and RETIREMENT: Won't the gay enrollee pay the same premium or costs involved as a straight enrollee?
Not with the cost of AIDS treatments, etc. which will likely be spread over all insurance customers--making the gay man pay premiums high enough to pay for estimated health expenses would be "discriminatory", you know.
MILITARY: If your hypothetical two gay soldiers married, why would their marriage be more troublesome than a straight couple in the military who marry?
Gay marriages seem to last a far shorter time than straight marriages (notice some of the gay couples in MA and CA who were married in the summer are ALREADY divorcing) and the resultant upheaval could be detrimental to unit cohesion.
Not to mention the promiscuity of homosexuals and resultant blood-borne diseases such as AIDS and hepatitis, not to mention tuberculosis in immunocompromised individuals...all of these pose a number of health risks for people who may be required to donate blood and / or live in close proximity.
And before you troll back, recall that one can have and transmit HIV before antibodies show up in the blood.
MONKEY: Any monkey you know asking to marry a human or vice versa?
Read up on Professor Peter Singer at Princeton, who advocates "doggie style" in more ways than one...
The purpose of marriage is to form intact families. Same sex marriage does not afford that priviledge. My sister in law is in a gay marriage, 3 WAY. Three women living together sharing one of them. The thought is perverted and it makes it hard to remain friends with her. All three of these women have been married to men. Bad marriages, and are lonely.
Sorry for the late reply, I found this thread by searching on keyword "ZOT."
This reminds me of the line that supposedly got Groucho Marx and "You Bet Your Life" thrown off the air.
He was interviewing a contestant, who said she had 8 children.
Guest: "I have eight children."
Groucho: "Eight! Why ?"
Guest: "I love my husband..."
Groucho: "I love my cigar, too, but I take it out once in awhile!"
Belated Merry Christmas to you!
Grey---your responses don't seem pertinent to me.
ADOPTION: First, Michael Jackson hasn't been convicted of anything. Second, he is not representative of anything "typical" of either gay or straight marriages. Third, there are always going to be sensational violations to whatever rules or laws we develop---but the question is should we dwell on those and consider them normative?
If you genuinely think that a gay man or woman (or bisexual) cannot provide a loving, caring, nurturing home that produces happy, well-adjusted, successful children ---then please cite some actual studies on the matter. Gays have been raising children for centuries so, surely, you have some specifics to cite by now!
COST OF AIDS TREATMENTS: Is it your position that recipients of expensive medical treatments should pay higher health premiums than other enrollees in HMO's or other health plans? So, for example, we should penalize heart disease patients and everyone who requires expensive medications for long periods of time or expensive corrective procedures?
GAY MARRIAGES: "Seem to last a far shorter time" --- upon what evidence do you base that statement? Have you ever done serious research into longevity of gay relationships or are you selecting one or two newspaper articles and proposing that those articles represent the whole truth of the matter? Should I use Britney Spears 55-hour marriage as "proof" of the instability of straight marriages? Besides, as I have previously mentioned, the only fair way to examine such a question would be to review available data after a decade or two when gay marriages are permitted.
Finally, I would like to thank everyone for posting their comments on this topic. I have learned several things from opponents that I had not previously considered on this issue. I especially want to thank the persons who attempted to seriously engage in discussion as opposed to merely spewing bile and venom while claiming to be Christians.
Honorable men and women can disagree about all sorts of controversial issues. I would like to think that the American Family can do so in an amicable, civil manner. However, regretably, there are always persons who focus on establishing a hierarchy within society, i.e. they want to identify "deserving" versus "undeserving" persons so that they can perceive themselves as superior to other human beings.
Homosexuality = Perversion.
Square peg round hole, Move along. Seek help!
The song "I saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" will have to be changed to "I saw Daddy Paul Kissing Santa Claus".
If only folks would listen to what former homosexuals say about the lifestyle...
I should post a major update to the categorical index later this week. I'll ping you when I do.
Adoption of children by homosexuals cannot be considered in the best interest of the child. NO child should be deprived of their natural basic right to have BOTH a Father AND a Mother for the sake of two selfish perverts that place their sexual preference over the needs of the child.
If you genuinely think that a gay man or woman (or bisexual) cannot provide a loving, caring, nurturing home that produces happy, well-adjusted, successful children ---then please cite some actual studies on the matter. Gays have been raising children for centuries so, surely, you have some specifics to cite by now!
See Fast Facts #1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 12, 15, 20-23, 24-34, 35-40, 59-72 Myth and Reality about Homosexuality--Sexual Orientation Section, Guide to Family Issues
COST OF AIDS TREATMENTS: Is it your position that recipients of expensive medical treatments should pay higher health premiums than other enrollees in HMO's or other health plans? So, for example, we should penalize heart disease patients and everyone who requires expensive medications for long periods of time or expensive corrective procedures?
In the U.S., the most prevalent adverse health conditions are arthritis and heart disease, which respectively afflict 40 and 50 million individuals, at an estimated total annual per capita cost ranging from $3,000-$6,000. Less than 1 million Americans have HIV/AIDS, with an estimated total annual per capita cost of about $200,000.
More than 400,000 Americans have died of AIDS. Most of the infections and deaths could have been prevented by the employment of standard public health practices, which were in place for more than half a century leading up to the inception of the AIDS epidemic. These practices include testing, contact tracing, reporting, and closing of infections sites. These standard practices were all abandoned under intense and unrelenting political pressure from homosexual activists and the AIDS lobby. See Fast Facts #17, 18, 101
GAY MARRIAGES: "Seem to last a far shorter time" --- upon what evidence do you base that statement? Have you ever done serious research into longevity of gay relationships or are you selecting one or two newspaper articles and proposing that those articles represent the whole truth of the matter?
Unstable Relationships
24. A 1991 study of homosexual men in New York City revealed that the average number of lifetime sexual partners was 308. (Meyer-Balburg H. Exner, T.,Lorenz G., Gruen, R., Gorman, J, Ehrhardt, A (1991) Sexual Risk Behavior, Sexual Functioning and HIV-Disease Progression in Gay Men Journal of Sex Research. 28, 1: 3-27.)
25. According to Centers for Disease Control interviews, 50% of male homosexuals had over 500 sexual partners, the first several hundred homosexual men diagnosed with AIDS had an average of l,100 lifetime partners. (Rotello, G. (1997). Sexual Ecology: AIDS and the Destiny of Gay men. NY: Dutton.)
26. Clinicians Mattison and McWhirter studied 156 long-term homosexual relationships, but found that not one couple was able to maintain sexual fidelity for more than five years. Most maintained a monogamous relationship for less than one year. Homosexual theorists respond by redefining promiscuity as normal and healthy for homosexual men. (The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop, Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, Schmidt, 1995)
27. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43% of white male homosexuals had sex with five hundred or more partners, with 28% having 1,000 or more sex partners. (A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981)
28. Few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, but in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from 1-37 years, "all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for sexual activity outside of their relationships." (David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop, Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984, pp. 252, 253)
29. In a study of 2,583 older homosexuals, "the modal range for number of sexual partners was 101-500. In addition, 10.2% to 15.7% had between 501 and 1,000 partners, and between 10.2% and 15.7% reported having had more than 1,000 lifetime sexual partners" (Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354).
30. In their Journal of Sex Research study of the sexual practices of older homosexual men, Paul Van de Ven, et al, found that only 2.7% of older homosexuals had only one sexual partner in their lifetime. (Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile," p. 354.)
31. Among heterosexual couples, 75% of husbands and 90% of wives claim never to have had extramarital sex. (Robert T. Michael et al., Sex in America: A Definitive Survey, Boston: Little, Brown & Company, 1994) Other studies and surveys confirm the percentage of faithful spouses between 75-81% for husbands and 85-88% for wives. (Michael W. Widerman, "Extramarital Sex: Prevalence and Correlated in a National Survey," Journal of Sex Research 34 [1997], pg. 2)
32. In the homosexual life, fidelity is almost impossible. Since part of the compulsion of homosexuality seems to be a need on the part of the homophile to absorb masculinity from his sexual partners, there is a compulsion to be constantly on the lookout for new partners. Consequently the most successful homophile "marriages" are those where there is an arrangement between the two to have affairs on the side while maintaining the semblance of permanence in their living arrangement. ( William Aaron, Straight (New York: Bantam Books, 1972), p. 208, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, p. 125, quoted by Robert H. Knight in "How Domestic Partnerships and ‘Gay Marriage’ Threaten the Family," Family Research Council, Insight, June 1994, p. 9)
33. For homosexual men, the term "monogamy" doesn’t necessarily mean sexual exclusivity. The term "open relationship" has for a great many homosexual men come to have one specific definition: A relationship in which the partners have sex on the outside often, put away their resentment and jealousy, and discuss their outside sex with each other, or share sex partners. (Michelangelo Signorile, Life Outside (New York: HarperCollins, 1997), p. 213)
34. "Even ‘committed’ homosexual relationships display a fundamental incapacity for the faithfulness and commitment that is axiomatic to the institution of marriage" (Timothy J. Dailey, Homosexual Parenting: Placing Children at Risk, http://www.frc.org/get/is01j3.cfm)
Should I use Britney Spears 55-hour marriage as "proof" of the instability of straight marriages?
You think a cheap publicity stunt like that is representative of marriage? Try again, The wife and I just celebrated our 23rd anniversary.
See #532
First, much of it is anecdotal and incapable of being verified. Take, for example,
"A 1991 study of homosexual men in New York City revealed that the average number of lifetime sexual partners was 308".
How was that "average" figure calculated? Who keeps records of their every sexual encounter during their lifetime?
Suppose you ask a straight couple who have been married 25 years to specify how many times they have made love. Does anyone seriously believe they have kept careful records of their love-making which, in subsequent decades, can be compared to other 25-year couples who also kept such records, and then "average" all the accumulated data? However, it is probably accurate to say that since the "sexual revolution" of the 1960's, there has been increased pre-marital sex as well as more sexual experimentation amongst all Americans.
Incidentally, I doubt the accuracy of: "Among heterosexual couples, 75% of husbands and 90% of wives claim never to have had extramarital sex."
Second, a very large number of gay and bisexual men and women never openly acknowledge their sexuality so making conclusions just from persons who agree to be interviewed is a dicey proposition. There is not even agreement on the percentage of gays and bisexuals in our population. I've seen figures as low as 1% and as high as 12%. Obviously, arriving at verifiable numeric data about gays is problematic at best.
It would be interesting to discover the methodology employed by the authors you cite in your message in order to determine how they went about finding interviewees and then what methods they used to determine accuracy of whatever they were being told.
Finally, during annual Gay Pride celebrations, many major cities produce a guide to the weekend's events, music, etc. Included in the guide are historical retrospectives and portraits of prominent gay personalities. In addition there usually are articles about long-term gay couples (often 15-20-25+ year relationships). Obviously, if you prefer to select ONLY those articles that discuss persons who claim to have had numerous sexual encounters and/or short-term relationships, you will miss all the other available evidence. One additional aspect which literature on this subject probably doesn't address: it is not uncommon for gay couples who terminate their love relationship to nonetheless continue to live with one another.
I suspect that any kind of sexual relationship which differs from your personal preferences is anathema to you. As I mentioned in my last message, some people look outside and always see "others" --- and they want society arranged in a fashion to validate themselves instead of what any "other" person chooses.
Part of our dispute is generational. When my mother was in her 20's, a woman who smoked or drank alcohol was considered to be morally defective. Today, such an opinion seems bizarre. When I was in my 20's long-hair on a man was considered a sign of rebellion and disrespect. [One of my employers demanded that all male employees cut their hair or be terminated!] Now, that too, seems a bizarre notion. Society evolves. Attitudes change. One bit of data you and I probably can agree on is this: younger folks today do not evidence the visceral disgust of gays that was commonplace one or generations ago. Which probably means gay marriage will eventually become reality---even though folks such as you will predict dreadful consequences.
Very simple.
Example:
A homosexual that has been sexually active from the age of 16 to 45 (29 years) would have to average 10.6 partners per year to have 308 lifetime total. Thats less than one partner per month, very conceivable no?. Thats a conservative estimate IMO. I imagine that should the homosexuals give honest answers to questions like "how many partners per month were you sexually active with?" the numbers would at least double if not triple. See how it works?
There is not even agreement on the percentage of gays and bisexuals in our population. I've seen figures as low as 1% and as high as 12%. Obviously, arriving at verifiable numeric data about gays is problematic at best.
Incidence of Homosexual behavior
84. A study of the sexual behavior of men in the United States based on the National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of 3,321 men aged 20-30), found that "2% of sexually active men aged twenty to thirty-nine . . . had had any same-gender sexual activity during the last ten years. Approximately 1% of the men (1.3% among whites and 0.2% among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual activity. (John O. G. Billy, et al., "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States," Family Planning Perspectives 25 (March/April 1993): 58)
85. Studies indicate that homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3% of the population. (J. Gordon Muir, "Homosexuals and the 10 % Fallacy," Wall Street Journal (March 31, 1993)
86. Contrary to estimates claiming that 10% of the American male population is homosexual, only "a very small number" of respondents reported that they were homosexual or bisexual. "98% of the sample reported that they were heterosexual." (Barbara C. Leigh "The Sexual Behavior of U.S. Adults: Results from a National Survey" American Journal of Public Health. Vol. 83, Number . , 1993. Page(s) 1400-1406)
87. In a survey of studies on homosexuals in different populations, the Archives of Sexual Behavior reported a random sample of Hawaii state residents interviewed by telephone. The study found "just about 3% of males and 1.2% of females as having engaged in same-sex or bisexual activity." (Milton Diamond, "Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations," Archives of Sexual Behavior 22 (1993): 300)
88. The percentage of men claiming to be homosexual is far less than Alfred Kinsey's 1948 claims that 10% of American males were homosexual and that 37% of men had some homosexual experience during their life. The National Survey of Men reports that "2.3% of men, age 20-39, have had 'same gender sexual activity' during the preceding ten years" and that "1.1% have had such activity exclusively." In addition, the "majority of men who have had homosexual contact report that such contact occurred 'once, twice, or rarely' for less than 2 years." (The National Survey of Men) (Stuart H. Seidman, and Ronald O. Reider "A Review of Sexual Behavior in the United States" The American Journal of Psychiatry. Vol. 151, Number . , 1994. Page(s) 330-339)
89. 2% of the sexually active men (aged 20 to 39) reported some homosexual activity within the previous 10 years. 1% reported sexual activity that was exclusively homosexual during that time period. (3,321 men, 1991) (John O. G. Billy, K. Tanfer, W. R. Grady, and D. H. Klepinger "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States" Family Planning Perspectives. Vol. 25, Number . , 1993. Page(s) 52-60)
90. A coalition of 31 leading pro-homosexual activist groups submitted a friend of the court brief to the U.S. Supreme Court in the Lawrence v. Texas case in 2003, claiming that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women are homosexual. (http://www.frc.org/get/cu03d1.cfm }
younger folks today do not evidence the visceral disgust of gays perversion that was commonplace one or generations ago.
That's because the youth of this day and age are being systematically indoctrinated with homosexual agenda propaganda via the NEA and the media. However the tide is beginning to turn.
Dangers of Same-Sex Couples Adopting Children (Part 1)Adoption by a happily, faithfully married husband and wife provides a healing environment for the child who has been surrendered by his or her biological parents. The faithful committed love of the father for his wife and children teaches the adoptive child that all men do not walk away from their responsibilities to their children.Dangers of Same-Sex Couples Adopting Children (Part 2)The strength under pressure of the adoptive mother teaches the child that even though his or her biological mother may not have thought she had the resources to bring up a child, the adoptive mother is strong enough to face any crisis and never stop loving or surrender a beloved child.
The day-to-day experience of seeing a loving married father and mother sacrifice and persevere gives the adopted child an image of true marital and parental love that can serve as a model for his or her own life.
Persons with same-sex attractions who adopt love their children, and the children love their adoptive parents, but because there is love there will also be denial. The same-sex couples will not be able to admit to themselves the harm they have done to the children they love, and so will blame "society" or "homophobia" for the problems they face. The children will not be able to voice their dissatisfaction and will at the same time feel guilty for not being grateful. The children will be made to feel that there is something wrong with their natural desire for a parent of opposite sexes.Children and homosexual adoptionAsk any child who grew up without one or the other parent about their childhood, and they will talk tenderly about how the absence of their mother or their father impacted them in extraordinarily deep ways. Just ask Rosie.Homosexual adoptionWhat is central to the debate is a proper understanding of cultural norms and how they influence our sense of self. Or, more to the point, how common law, common sense, history and science all tell us that the very nature of a homosexual relationship deprives a child of the emotionally stable environment that he or she requires.Trophy childrenIt was the first study to examine the character of homosexual and heterosexual parents in an adversarial setting. The results were startling. Eighty-two percent of the homosexual parents versus 18 percent of the heterosexual parents were recorded as having poor character. More importantly, of the recorded harms to children, which included molestation and physical abuse, 97 percent were attributed to the homosexual parent
Very simple. Example: A homosexual that has been sexually active from the age of 16 to 45 (29 years) would have to average 10.6 partners per year to have 308 lifetime total. Thats less than one partner per month, very conceivable no?. Thats a conservative estimate IMO. I imagine that should the homosexuals give honest answers to questions like "how many partners per month were you sexually active with?" the numbers would at least double if not triple. See how it works?
But your examples PRESUMES several factors as normative.
1. That most gay men are sexually active starting at age 16.
2. That most gay men between ages 16 and 45 never have lovers.
3. That gay men engage in sexual activity with at least one different person each month.
How does your "example" work under the following scenario?
Gay sexual activity commences at age 19 and involves 2 or 3 different partners a month for 6 months --- then monogamous relationship which lasts 3 years. Subsequent sexual activity with 2 partners each month (including previous boyfriends) for 12 months -- then another monogamous relationship which lasts 10-15 years. Subsequent sexual activity once or twice each month often involving previous boyfriends.
Consequently, your "308" figure which conveys the notion that 308 different people are involved, might actually involve a total of, say, 20 or 30 different persons. My point being that there is no way to know the correct data.
Many Christians believe that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. I presume that as she engaged in her profession she "knew" many more than 20 or 30 men.
And I further presume that her sexual activities may have been similar to what you, FastCoyote, and others in this thread have described as being typical for gays and bisexuals.
If you and others in this thread were alive in her time, and you heard Jesus say "Let him without sin be the first to cast a stone" --- I'm sure you would all have rushed to the front of the line and eagerly taken the stone from Jesus's hand.
So much hate. Seek help.
Let me get this straight, stating fact and figures from studies is 'hate'?
Interesting.
What say you?
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