Posted on 05/18/2004 5:37:01 PM PDT by dinok
“My daughter will have to marry down,” stated a sociologist at the colloquium, meaning that her daughter would have to "settle" for a husband with less education and a lower income. A black sociologist added that for years, women in her peer group have had to marry down if they wanted to marry at all.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
You're right. I mistakenly suggested this had something to do with getting a man. But I do stand by the point that the men they are pursuing aren't so interested in marrying someone just like themselves.
Ok, great. Then you are unlike the women in the article who are complaining about the whole 'marrying down' concept.
Being as I'm evidently too old, miserable, and infertile to attract a comparably-educated man, that is.
Just in general, Doctor, observe the following. It is not uncommon for, say, a 30-33 year old man to marry a 22-25 year old woman. It's plausible. Now flip it around. It doesn't happen. Even as much of a 2-3 year difference is not as likely. It's unfortunate for women in that their options are more limited and less flexible than a man's. My point was that the women who are discussed in the article missed this point. Of COURSE there are examples to the contrary, but in general, this is the way it is.
I really don't want to get into the specifics of your case, you may be an exceptional example, but I don't think very many women go through the trouble of getting a PhD with the goal of raising 4-5 children and not dumping them in day care (aka 'child abuse.')
Hi,
Good for you for going back to school and finishing your degree. I've known a few graduate students who were older (sometimes by a good bit) than the traditional age bracket and a few who were raising children as they pursued their degree. I never understood how they did it. It's tough enough even when you're in your early-mid twenties, single, and childless.
My degree is in biological psychology, a.k.a. behavioral neuroscience. In other words, I work with rats all day and do lots of behavioral testing, drug testing, and surgical manipulations. I'm just beginning a post-doc in which I'll learn how to apply molecular techniques to the same sorts of problems.
Another thing that struck me about your earlier post was your assertion that women who pursue higher degrees do so to attract men. I certainly didn't, although you've made it clear you don't want to discuss the specifics of my case (which happen to be awfully inconvenient for your thesis). In fact, as a general rule women who are looking to attract men dumb themselves down because endearing stupidity in women tends to be reinforced by a lot of male attention, whereas intelligence and achievement are regarded as "intimidating."
Incidentally, educated men are about the only ones who aren't out looking for a much younger, dumber, and less successful partner, as a general rule. To the contrary, they pursue and marry educated women. The concern of the women in the article about "marrying down" stemmed not from the fact that male PhDs, MDs, JDs, MBAs, etc. are not interested in comparably educated women, but that there are relatively few educated men around now that women earn >50% of college and graduate degrees.
I have no hostility and stand by my point. My comment was directed toward the women who were complaining about 'marrying down.' My point is that the the guys that these women consider their 'equal' are not as interested in marrying an 'equal' and have less or no qualms about 'marrying down.' I base this on a large amount of personal experience, on men I know who have expressed comment on the subject and in their choice of wives. This isn't a matter of opinion but of fact.
Another thing that struck me about your earlier post was your assertion that women who pursue higher degrees do so to attract men.
I mentioned in response to someone else who commented on this that it was a mistake in my part. That is correct.
In fact, as a general rule women who are looking to attract men dumb themselves down because endearing stupidity in women tends to be reinforced by a lot of male attention, whereas intelligence and achievement are regarded as "intimidating."
If that's true, it makes my point.
However, I would never have personally said something like that - sounds really 'repugnant' and like 'self-righteous condemnation' of women. I don't really believe it, either, but if you say so... The concern of the women in the article about "marrying down" stemmed not from the fact that male PhDs, MDs, JDs, MBAs, etc. are not interested in comparably educated women, but that there are relatively few educated men around now that women earn >50% of college and graduate degrees. Right. And the 'relatively few men' have the pick of the litter and go for the 22 year old with an undergrad degree looking to makea family rather than her 29 year old sister who has a wall of diplomas and is consumed with her career.
See here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/915289/posts
I have no hostility and stand by my point. My comment was directed toward the women who were complaining about 'marrying down.' My point is that the the guys that these women consider their 'equal' are not as interested in marrying an 'equal' and have less or no qualms about 'marrying down.' I base this on a large amount of personal experience, on men I know who have expressed comment on the subject and in their choice of wives. This isn't a matter of opinion but of fact. I guess we cuold dig up social research data to back it up if needed.
Another thing that struck me about your earlier post was your assertion that women who pursue higher degrees do so to attract men.
I mentioned in response to someone else who commented on this that it was a mistake in my part. That is correct.
In fact, as a general rule women who are looking to attract men dumb themselves down because endearing stupidity in women tends to be reinforced by a lot of male attention, whereas intelligence and achievement are regarded as "intimidating."
If that's true, it makes my point.
However, I would never have personally said something like that - sounds really 'repugnant' and like 'self-righteous condemnation' of women. I don't really believe it, either, but if you say so...
The concern of the women in the article about "marrying down" stemmed not from the fact that male PhDs, MDs, JDs, MBAs, etc. are not interested in comparably educated women, but that there are relatively few educated men around now that women earn >50% of college and graduate degrees.
Right. And the 'relatively few men' have the pick of the litter and go for the 22 year old with an undergrad degree looking to makea family rather than her 29 year old sister who has a wall of diplomas and is consumed with her career.
See here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/915289/posts
Let me make this as simple as possible.
Men are blessed in the sense that they can expect both family and career and do so without having to listen to the hysterics of traditionalists such as yourself. Some women believe that this privilege should be theirs as well and go for it, critics be damned.
There are a lot of men out there who want a maid/chef/nanny/ etc. as a partner and will not consider educated women. Most educated women won’t consider them either. No skin off anyone’s noses.
There are also lots of men who want something more than a Stepford wife. They tend to be educated and tend to marry educated women. I know this because I interact with PhDs and MDs every day. I’d sure like to know where you’re finding men with that level of education who prefer 22 year-olds who want to stay home and have babies, because I don’t know a single one.
This is the point of the article, which you keep missing: the women being quoted want to marry men with PhDs or whatever other degree they themselves have obtained. They’re not finding those men not because the men are out dating 20 year-olds named Bambie, but because there are significantly fewer men who have attained that level of education. That’s why they’re griping about “marrying down” as opposed to not being able to marry at all. If the world were as you see it, none of these women should ever have a date let alone get married.
As Forrest Gump would say, “That’s all I have to say about that.”
And if anyone has an 'attitude' it's you because you dump on the the married woman who makes her children her highest priority.
You also make the critical mistake of confusing intelligence/IQ with education. The smartest women I know don't have college degrees, and many of the men I know who have JDs and other advanced degrees are comically stupid. Having letters after your name doesn't indicate success or happiness in life, and IQ is the real driver behind income. Any twit with the $ and patience can get a PhD.
At 39, widowed, with 2 pre-teen sons in need of a father, I'm not above looking for a man in the blue collar ranks.
At least in marrying down I might find a man with decent biceps....as opposed to the jello-pudding filled spaghetti noodles sported by those men who do make it to the world of white collar these days.
That is so true!
That's a debatable point. Personally, I'd find it intolerable to date, much less marry, some touchy-feely "sensitive" man--I have absolutely no patience for all of that mushy stuff. (Few people are as logical as I am.) Maybe you're not looking for someone exactly like yourself, but I don't think you'd want someone completely different, either.
Good luck! I hope you enjoy the new techniques!
I see your point. You are reflecting on something actually more important than the interest of the women in the article - emotional disposition. The women in the article are whining about not being able to find a man with a similar set of diplomas on the wall.
The best marriages are made when one spouse wears the pants and the other wears the panties.
Even look at the gay 'marriages'.
Somebody needs to say those famous hallmark words of the successful couple - "Yes Dear".
At the rate things are going, I recommend that women interested in 'marrying up' learn to speak Chinese or Hindi.
I know that's true in my case. I am 36 years old, an attorney by training, and started my own legal publishing business a few years ago and am now doing very well. Stuff like educational degrees, career path and potential, etc. are not prerequisites for a potential mate.
I prefer younger, fresher faced women, with balanced interests and values and goals that are at least aligned with my own values and goals. Race for me isn't a factor.
I quit law firm life because I didn't like having a 1/2 dozen bosses in my life, all jockeying for my attention. I didn't like 2600-3000 hour a year work schedules, seldom seeing my loved ones, finding it impossible to take significant vacation time because of conflicting work demands, having to check my voicemail 4 or 5 times a day on sick days because the people in my life were incapable of making a decision by themselves, and of course the politics and backstabbing.
Naturally, I am suspectof a potential mate that isn't as alienated by that kind of schedule as I am. To each their own, but I don't want a part-time mate who will make me and our family a lower priority than work demands.
$180k and a $20k bonus isn't worth it (it gets cut almiost in half by taxes anyway). I know - I work less now and make more money. It's all an illusion.
I walked away from that world so I could make my personal interests primary in my life. I expect the same in a mate.
A woman more interested in working 2800 hours a year and jumping 10 feet in the air when a partner at her firm calls her to his or her office, and bringing home the big bucks, just isn't for me.
Haha! Kudos! But what excites men and women in a potential mate is different.
For example, I was speaking with a woman at my old job - she was 30, attractive, accomplished, very educated, and very nice. She had met a man a few years older than her who was very successful financially (in the $600k+ level), powerful (high management in a notable company), had a great title at his company, etc. She matter-of-factly spoke about how these thinks appealed to her, which I think is normal.
[That relationship didn't work out - she worked too much and wasn't available enough for his taste, which I understand completely]
Now, I think many women feel that way. But the fact is, most men are not particularly impressed sexually if they met a woman who is a CEO at a big company, makes $750k a year, travels the world going to power meetings all around the world in a corporate jet, etc. Men, on balance, just don't swoon over that kind of stuff, in themselves.
If she offers other things, then that kind of woman may become more attractive to the typical man. Frankly, men aren't too sexually impressed by a woman who is sucessful in the business world or well educated. Men can and do admire those things in a woman, but we are talking about picking romantic companions and mates. Academic degrees and a high paying job, etc. in themselves, aren't what attract men to women.
If anything, a woman(or man) jetting off to the far reaches of the globe for business and who spends a lot of time at the office or in meetings is more likely(by a LOT) to commit adultery.
Well, I didn't even broach this, but I think its basically accurate. I am good friends with one of the best clinical hypnotherapists in the country - he has literally 12 or 13 thousand hours of clinical hypnosis work under his belt, and works with both men and women, helping them with a variety of problems.
We got on the discussion of adultery once, and while he could not broach patient confidentiality, he spoke in broad terms. In his estimation, probably the single biggest factor of a mate straying is 'opportunity.' The second was 'proximity,' which is related to opportunity, of course.
A jet-setting, high power, lots-of money in the pocket, corporate card charging man or woman, is bound to have much more opportunity than the average person - meeting lots of people, availability and relative anonimity of nice hotel rooms, meeting people who turn on strongly to money and power, etc. A guy like me (quiet president of a small legal publishing company), the average homemaker of either sex (the fedex girl and the cable guy stories notwithstanding, and let me tell you, I have a HOT fedex girl!), the typical schoolteacher (again of either sex), the average office worker, the typical car mechanic, etc, while of course has oppoortunity, has a much narrower window of opportunity than someone with a much more active lifestyle and the availability of greater resoruces.
So I think you are basically right. For me, I don't like being a lower priority than a demanding career that, more often than not, 'successful' people complain about quite a bit in their time away form their offices!
I think many women feel the same.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.