Blame whom? (A precise damnation of Spain, Greece, and other European appeasers)

Victorhanson.Com ^ | March 14, 2004, 10:00 p.m. | Victor Davis Hanson

[NZerFromHK]

Let me get this straight. Two-and-a-half years after September 11, on a similar eleventh day of the month, 911 days following 9-11, and on the eve of Spanish elections, Al Qaeda or its epigones blows up 200 and wounds 1,400 Spaniards. This horrific attack follows chaotic months when Turks were similarly butchered (who opposed the Iraq War), Saudis were targeted (who opposed the Iraqi war), Moroccans were blown apart (who opposed the Iraqi war) and French periodically threatened (who opposed the Iraqi War).

[Frank_Discussion]

I suspect that even hard-core Dems would care about this, if it were explained to them. Unfortunately, I don't think the issue will be drug into the light of day.

Stunning, yes. Scary, you bet. I truly believe that Socialism as a global force is still very much with us. I also believe that the Islamofascists are quite willing pawns, as they were under Nazi directions in WW II. They don't care greatly on the nuances of the political ideology of their financiers and facilitators, the power available is all that matters to them.

[prognostigaator]

Those who try to appease tyrants inevitably succumb to them, those who maintain their freedom are those who are prepared to die to defend it.

Your discourse with 'berliner' both educational and enlightening.

In regards to Turkey, and Islam in particular, a question.

Would not your statement above also apply to the mindset of the radical mullahs and their 'freedom' loving desiples, ie , Al Queda?

[nkycincinnatikid]

bump for later read

[91B]

Cato-I knew you were a Redleg as I remember that you used to have a tagline about artillery lending dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar riot (or something like that, my mind is a vast wasteland of arcana). I will pass on the message if I get back to Iraq, I was there from June to August of last year, but I have been in Qatar for almost seven months now. It's a nice place, and about as good a duty assignment as you can find in a "combat" zone.

[vanmorrison]

Forward Defense to protect whom? During the Cold War, European countries received the benefits of having American troops stationed on the Russian Front, not the US. If the American continent was endangered, we could have responded from the seas with our ballistic missile submarine fleet. We believed that there was an economic and security benefit for the Europeans, who were our "allies".

And during the post-WWII era, our biggest bloodletting occurred in Vietnam. Where were the Europeans during that altercation? If the entire "free world" supported the anti-Communist effort, why weren't the Europeans in the rice paddies along with the US riflemen? And let's not bring up the Japanese, who were in the very theater of operations! They never showed up on the field.

Yet each of these countries continues to receive the benefits of freedom provided by the shed blood of American servicemen, counted in the tens of thousands. Even while they stick a shiv in our backs when the heavy lifting of war occurs, at our expense.

This practice of the US being the "Policeman of the World" has long since passed the point of sane policy. We should expect and demand that there be consequences for the unreliable acts of erstwhile allies, delivered to these Quislings by American leaders who represent the interests of the American people, not some misbegotten UN which only advances some anti-American "New World Order".

...And JohnEffinKerry is ahead in the polls!

[LexBaird]

Spain is only 1.2% Muslim..

Welcome to the official start of the re-reconquista. Al Queda wants it back.

[Berliner Baer]

Two points: If you agree with my major premises, that we are in a war, that it is for the Moslems to differentiate themselves and that we must do whatever is necessary to defend Western civilization, then how can you defend an appeasement, law enforcement model?

If it's a war, who is to be bombed? (Aside from Afghanistan)

It is a large terrorist campaign - determined people throwing burning matches into our direction, hoping the West will blow up and retaliate in a brutal fashion indifferently against Muslims before these terrorists are caught. And then our brutal reaction shall spark their global Jihad amongst all Muslims. (I've seen calls here on Freerepublic to revive this infamous Japanese-act from WWII, to allow rounding up all Muslims in the US - Osama would love exactly something like this)

But I wanna mention again that it strikes me odd how the majority of moderate Muslims only sit on the side-lines and carefully seem to observe our reactions. Perhaps the motive for this is also a bit the lack of respect which we Wsterners had in earlier decades for them (Our Muslims in Europe often did the "poor" jobs, like Mexicans in California, but not just that)

Since Attaturk, Turkey has sought to be both modern and moslem, with varying degrees of success. The elite is, generally, sufficiently pro-Western that Turkey ought to be part of the European community, but the masses in the interior and eastern Turkey remain at levels that would caution against their inclusion in Europe. And, what is Turkey today encompasses both the heart of the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople and areas that were probably not much more civilized today than they were before the Ottoman conquest. I would probably be in favor of dividing Turkey into a European country that encompasses European Turkey and the areas just accross the Straits, and a Middle Eastern Turkey that could remain mired in the 18th century. I'd let the European Turks into Europe, but not the peasant eastern part of the country.

A split Turkey is of course illusional, as Turks have an irrational nationalism, they won't even consider giving up the Kurdish territories.

The problem with Turkey is somewhat closer to us here than the Arabs. Germany has 2 Million Turks - by far our largest muslim minority, unlike France perhaps - and issues like head-scarves in public services are becoming pressing. Most of our Turks come from Anatolia, those poorer part of Turkey. And since emigrants by nature stronger hold on to "old values from home", our Turks are by average much more religious and traditionalist than Istanbul-Turks. And some worry exists that there will be a flood of people from the poorest parts coming to the EU, once the gates are opened.

Ironically, the military, which always upholds Atatürk's secularism (and enforces it with violence, if needed), is opposed to a EU-membership, as it fears loss of influence. For the same reason, the current Muslim-based Turkish Government wants so hard into the EU-club - to get rid of this military watchdog breathing down their necks.

[Tallguy]

Forward Defense to protect whom?

Oh, c'mon! The US, of course! In the immediate aftermath of WW2 EVERYBODY realized that the mistake that we made after WW1 was to bring the Army home. This allowed France to backslide and Germany to rearm, pure & simple.

A separate, but no less important factor, was nuclear weapons. Would they deter the Soviets by themselves? Nobody knew. In any case, it became increasingly undesireable to use them.

Hence, you get Forward Defense.

BTW, if our Army hadn't been in Europe, the Soviets wouldn't have needed to maintain their huge Tank Armies. Do you think they might have developed a Blue Water Navy at an earlier stage with the savings? How about a real Strategic Airforce? That type of force structure would have directly threatened the United States much more than the unusable nuke-tipped missiles that they could afford.

[george wythe]

Berliner Baer:

(a full belly is less aggressive)

hellinahandcart:

All of the 9/11 hijackers were middle-class or higher, college educated, and extremely well fed. The people at the top, funding and planning these escapades, are filthy rich.

You need to think of another motive for this trend, because hunger isn't it. It may comfort you to think that, but it isn't true.

Look at which political groups support the terrorists and their pet dictators, either directly or by default (in other words, hating the U.S. more), and you'll have the beginnings of the truth.

Absolutely.

Claiming that poverty is one of the causes of Arab terrorism makes no sense.

[george wythe]

German media and public is rather uni-lateral in their views

No kidding.

Monolithic media is a Western European legacy.

That's why so many Western Europeans were surprised at the US troops rolling into Baghdad, while the Western European media were telling them that the US troops were bogged down.

I remember a BBC reporter claiming that the US military was lying about the US tanks driving through Baghdad and taking over the airport. He had to eat his words a few hours later.

[LexBaird]

The law-enforcement option is the only one to pursue with determination.

What good would military do if used now in Spain domestically?

All options must be employed, each in their areas of effectiveness. The law enforcement angle helps us to track and disrupt the funds and organization of the cells within law-abiding nations. The military option allows us to close off access to training and safe havens for the terrorists.

And no, invading Iraq wasn't a big step either in the fight against terrorism: It might have even opened up a Pandora's box for the radical Muslims to gain power (I will hopefully be proven wrong there)

I believe you will be, in the long run. Iraq isn't a pandora box, it was a festering wound. Sheerly due to its geographical position, we have removed the keystone in the terrorist base. Syria and Iran are now isolated, with allied troops positioned to move East, West, or South as the situation demands.

Before, the terrorists could play training camp shuffle, going from Libya to the Bekka valley, to Iraq, to Iran, to Afghanistan at will. Now, their ability to train for large scale attacks is sharply curtailed.

[Berliner Baer]

Welcome to Free Republic, I am interested in your comments.

Tx. I am not sure yet what to make of this forum. I find it quite bizarre and irritating to read all these hostile and militant comments on here re: "Euroscum", "Eurotrash", "We shall abandon them", "Europe died", "Boycott Spain", etc.

While I am quite critical of Bush's past actions, I always seen the US as a friendly nation, with which Europe shares almost all of its values and also always liked US-troops (Comes natural to a West-Berliner, I guess *g*), so I feel a bit troubled by all these alienating remarks here over mere continental differences in how to tackle an issue.

And I had previously thought Bush was already highly divisive - had no idea how much further this rift actually is until I read here!

And without adressing the individual differences: I think Bush is to blame for a lot of this current rift, as he didn't manage to communicate well (not only all the WMD-talk at the UN). His diplomacy was in the end more one of division than of unity amongst us Western countries, comparing him to former Presidents. (Regardless now over the direction of his political views - only history will tell there, which is right)

Frankly, I think that many Islamic governments blame the U.S. and U.S. policy for their own shortcomings and find the U.S. as a convenient target for redirecting their people's wrath.

Yeah, I think that's part of the game. Some Arabic journalist once said in a polemic way, it's frustrating to many Arabs that they can buy all the high-tech gagdets they want, but Arabs themselves are unable to even manufacture one of those tiny screws in their cellphones.

And the West is also an easy scapegoat, as we tend to have a historic arrogance towards Muslims, which also easily locks horns with prideful Arabs.

[prognostigaator]

bump

[prairiebreeze]

Here is what seems to be confirmation of the Socialists plans to meet with Kerry:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1098012/posts

Prairie

[eleni121]

Yes, Jan Sobieski inspired the advance of the Muslim Turks and halted their further encroachment into Europe.

Too bad he couldn't have stood with the Emperor Constantine on the ramparts of Constantinople in 1452 although the Byzantine Christians kept the Muslims at bay for about 600 years.

Amazing isn't it that the most lily livered of the Euros are the Greeks and Spaniards who suffered the most under the domination of the mohameddans.

[CatoRenasci]

If it's a war, who is to be bombed? (Aside from Afghanistan)

But I wanna mention again that it strikes me odd how the majority of moderate Muslims only sit on the side-lines and carefully seem to observe our reactions.

The fact that the enemy is hiding among an apparently sympathetic population in a number of moslem countries does not make it any less a war.

Wars are not won by appeasing the enemy, nor by incarcerating (in rather cushy jails) the few you catch. Wars are won by destroying the enemy's will to fight. Sometimes, if one is lucky, an enemy's will to fight can be broken before the enemy forces are all destroyed. Sometimes, the only way to destroy the enemy's will to fight is to destroy the enemy. I fear that with the Islamofascists, the only way to destroy their will to fight will be to kill them.

However, short of that, we take actions which encourge Moslems to distance themselves from the Islamofascists by making it (1) very painful, perhaps even fatal, to be associated with them (just as they try to kill those who side with us) and (2) carrying our war to their homes and their families, rather than waiting for them to use terrorism to bring the war to us.

For, the Islamofascists will surely bring the war to us, whether or not we bring the war to them. We can only hope we stop them before they kill many more of us. And the only ways to stop them are (1) surrender to them or (2) kill them where we find them, punish the governments that support them, even the governments that suffer them to remain on their soil. Or to bankroll them.

War is an ugly thing. The only thing uglier than knowing what you have had to do to win a war like the one we are in with the Islamofascists is losing such a war, for it would mean the end of civilization as we know it.

You call our interning the Japanese infamous, but I would certainly be willing to intern any Moslem in the United States who was not will to unequivocally swear that his or her loyalty to the United States comes ahead of his or her loyalty to other Moslems.

You ask who is to be bombed? I have a nasty suspicion the Iranians may be next, since they are clearly trying to develop nuclear weapons. Of course, you Europeans are too busy selling them the means to do so that you have refused to take any action against the Iranians. Another example of European cowardice.

You correctly notice, and are disturbed by, the failure of so-called moderate Moslems to distance themselves. Well, instead of looking at why the West is to blame, consider the obvious possibility: that most Moslems really do support the Islamofascists, in their ultimate goals if not always in their immediate tactics. I understand you don't want even to consider the possibilty, because that would mean we American cowboys, with our "you're with us or against us" attitude, are correct, that we must confront Islamofascism, prevent them from acquiring weapons of mass destruction, and be prepared fight to the death if necessary to protect the West.

Of course the notion of splitting Turkey is absurd, I only advance the notion to show what a hard case Turkey is. I would not let Turkey as now consitituted into the EU, but that's not my problem, it's Europe's.

As to the Turks in Germany, you all let them in, you all figure it out. If the Germans had any character left, they'd give Turks in Germany a choice of assimilating completely or going home.

I find my current almost complete disaffection with Germany almost ironic. I did doctoral work in modern European history with a specialty in the German and English Enlightenments, and 19th century German intellectual history. I have read your classics auf Deutsch, including Schiller's magnificent translations of Shakespeare, and your great writers from Kant through Mann, your historians from von Ranke through Dilthey and Trietscke to Golo Mann, Ernst Nolte, Friederich Heer, Gerhard Ritter, and Fritz Fischer. Ich kann Deutsch. I have admired German literature, music and art, as well as much of your history, from Barbarosa through the Wirtschaftswunder. I've argued that Hilter did not reflect the essence of the German soul against many in academia who have long believed that there was essentially something evil in the Germans. I've taken the German side in the Kriegschuldfrage. For a non-German, Germany has not had a greater friend than it has had in me. But, Germany's behavior in the past two years has changed my view of the Germans. As a people, you are not even epigoni of your fathers of the Wirtshaftswunder, let alone of your grandfathers and greatgrandfathers who, for the most part ordinary Germans not really caring about ideology, fought for Germany in three wars against the French, and two against most of the world. The German students of 1848, and the Germans who rose against Napoleon, would not know you, and would be ashamed you claim to be Deutsch.

[CatoRenasci]

Well, for various reasons (some bad, some not so bad), Western Europeans abandoned the Byzantines to their fate, and then reaped the bitter fruit in centuries of Ottoman Moslem occupation of the Balkans and much of central Europe, including Hungary. And, it looks like the Europeans want to cozy up to the Islamofascists now, and let us die defending their civilization. Bah! I am disgusted.

[dyed_in_the_wool]

Iraq was not about removing Saddam. It was only about enforcing weapon inspections. At least so Bush told us.

It was about enforcing the terms of the cease fire and 18 U.N. resolutions.
Yes, arms inspections was one condition, regardless of whether or not Saddam had WMD.

[Berliner Baer]

You call our interning the Japanese infamous, but I would certainly be willing to intern any Moslem in the United States who was not will to unequivocally swear that his or her loyalty to the United States comes ahead of his or her loyalty to other Moslems.

This is actually the corepoint of our debates on head-scarves in public service, like for teachers or judges. When a woman wears a headscarf, where does her prime loyalty lie: In the State or in Islam?

If the Germans had any character left, they'd give Turks in Germany a choice of assimilating completely or going home.

German history makes this difficult. Any "forced-upon Germanization" would bring bad memories. And critics of this also always quote the US as main-witness: "US has several China-towns where many people don't speak English, it works for them".

For a non-German, Germany has not had a greater friend than it has had in me. But, Germany's behavior in the past two years has changed my view of the Germans...... The German students of 1848, and the Germans who rose against Napoleon, would not know you, and would be ashamed you claim to be Deutsch.

You are being too impatient, especially with your apparent knowledge of Germany. As much as I dislike the silly "You come from Nazi-country"-standardflame from online-people, everything in our domestic psyche is still dominated from the Hitler-trauma.

First of all, Schröder is a media-chancellor. He was about to lose the last election, so he appealed to German's instincts: "If you are against war, sign here". And so people did. It's still a reflex for now. And considering the bloody fields of last two world-wars, perhaps not the worst.

And I surely don't have to explain that to you, but WWII really came to end at unification in 1990. And our first combat-duty was on the Balkans in 99 (or late 98).

Germans still haven't found any solid confidence again as a nation, but are very slowly balancing things out - slowly taking more responsibility (like Afghanistan), but bending over backwards at the same time to never again raise any fears of mistreating people unfairly. And while it sometimes goes off track, I don't view this as something bad.

Your above notion of "Either tell the Turks to assimilate or send them home" says it all: Only a non-German could suggest that. Germans should force again some people to relocate because they didn't assimilate enough to "being German"? And you tell this to someone, who sees the names of murdered Holocaust-victims from former neighbours of my street engraved in the sidewalk, when I leave the house? Or when I still see badly covered bullet-holes from WWII in the walls of some older houses here?

Of course, any of this is just a side-issue: Bush is not just by Germany critizised. ;-) But Germany's motives of concern of the past two years are less sinister than you make them - either completely critizise Germany's history past-WWII or not at all, but the past two years have been pretty much in line with the rest.

[GoLightly]

giving Arabs a better perspective on life in their countries

"Better" is subjective. If "better" comes at the cost of your culture, your beliefs, your soul, how would you feel about those who made things "better"?

(a full belly is less aggressive)

So you're saying the best strategy to end a siege would be to feed those holding fast against you?