Evolution Critics Are Under Fire For Flaws in 'Intelligent Design'

Wall Street Journal ^ | Feb 13, 2004 | SHARON BEGLEY

[The Raven]

Even before Darwin, critics attacked the idea of biological evolution with one or another version of, "Evolve this!"

Whether they invoked a human, an eye, or the whip-like flagella that propel bacteria and sperm, the contention that natural processes of mutation and natural selection cannot explain the complexity of living things has been alive and well for 200 years.

[Virginia-American]

Legs on whales. Those aren't legs they are used for mating.

Not exactly. Whale embryos have leg buds which are absorbed back into the developing embryo. (Baleen whale embryos have teethe that are absorbed back as well

Whale Embryo

Sometimes the absorption is not complete.

See also

[donh]

When the intermediates or the ancestral-type III secretion systems are found, ping me, will ya?

When the intermediate antibodies, that gradually led up to my smallpox antibodies are found, ping me, will ya?

[donh]

Theories can and are proven. They are then used to predict and explain.

Let me just read part of your quote from SA back to you:

The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.

At what point did Scientific Amercian say that a "fact" was evidence of the existence of a proof? It's a fact that you avoid throwing yourself into oncoming traffic. Do you see a proof of this somewhere about your person?

[edsheppa]

What's needed is a complete evolutionary path and not merely a possible oasis along the way.

Ah yes, the old if we don't know everything, we don't know anything argument.

The best current molecular evidence, however, points to the TTSS as evolving from the flagellum and not vice versa (Nguyen et al. 2000). This can also be seen intuitively.

Talk about chutzpah - evolution can't possibly be true because the best evidence is that X evolved from Y and not vice versa.

And blah blah blah he continues in the usual Dembskian manner but never addresses the point being made that the supposedly irreduciably complex flagellum isn't. And so it goes.

[Sofa King]

Unless you have an identical twin, your genes are unique.

[bondserv]

This thread looks like a good one to pull this diddy out for.

The theory of Evolution is like attributing the production of a sandcastle to the ocean because you observed the water creating the mote.

Two men become stranded on a remote island. As they explore the island they come upon a sandcastle with towers, buttresses and a drawbridge. The design of the castle is amazingly intricate.

One man comments, "It is amazing what time and the ocean can create. The small rocks and seashells on the shore must have got caught in eddies and swirled around and chiseled out that castle. There were a few palm leaves floating by that scribed out the little lines that look like bricks. We are alone here and there is no need to consider anything else."

The other man looked at him incredulously and said, "No, that castle was created by another intelligent being with a clear intent of design, we are not alone."

Rom 1:19-25
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[qam1]

Job

11:5
But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee;

11:6
And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.

11:7
Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

[kuma]

Yes you can even find these pictures and lessons on university websites. The reason for some absorbing them back in and others not is the same as human fetal development. It's gender development. As I've stated before they are used for reproduction. Reproduction is not a vestigial function. It is critical to the success of any species.

The fact is that school children are learning that these are leftover legs and they are not taught that they are used for mating. This renders the child less knowledgeable about the whale. Is this what we are trying to achieve in schools across America? We sit and debate science, we sit and debate phonics vs. whole language and meanwhile the kids just keep getting more stupid than the day they were before.

[kuma]

Sorry I forgot to ping you to my reply to Virginia American in post #248.

[Virginia-American]

The fact is that school children are learning that these are leftover legs and they are not taught that they are used for mating.

Aren't you getting the vestigial legs (present in only a few individuals) mixed up with the pelvis (which anchors the penis)?

Please provide a citation that demonstrates these 'legs' are needed for mating.

[AndrewC]

Unless you have an identical twin, your genes are unique.

Wrong. My total gene set is probably unique. Half of my genes are possessed by my mother, and half by my father(barring mutations).

[kuma]

Exactly, those legs are not legs but are different in males and females. For the males it's so they can get an erection and females have vaginal contractions. The pelvic bone is not attached to the vertebrae.

Still we are not talking about two different things. If you are referring to abnormal bone growth on the pelvis, that regularly happens, the documentation is "anecdotal". Anecdotal means that it isn't documented enough to conclude anything. Abnormal bone growth can occur for any number of reasons. You might think it's a large amount of bone but on an animal as big as a whale it is insignificant.

We sit here and talk about these topics and yet over all we have so little of the information. Things are hotly contested throughout the science community and many hang on to things long after they are outdated. Human fetuses with gils and other such things are still routinely taught as fact. There were well known evolutionists on The O'Reilly Factor after PBS's Evolution special who stated that regurgitating things that are outdated is damaging though everyone is guilty of doing so.

Simply put people specialize in their field of science today. Things are moving at a rapid pace and not everyone in every field is up to speed on everything outside of their area of expertise or even within their area for that matter.

Especially teachers are just out of touch. The fact that many of the same things on PBS's show are in our schools' textbooks doesn't help at all. The textbooks need to be corrected and a method found for regularly updating them but too many egos are in the way and people like the ones in this article are not really helping much. They are far more concerned with being right than with fixing the problem.

[PatrickHenry]

Lurking ...

[VadeRetro]

I think the primary function is for mating as that is awfully important for a successful species.

Mating is not a recent development in the line of descent leading to whales. That doesn't mean hind legs didn't once have a more primary locomotive function in that lineage. What's primary/only now was once secondary.

I'm not trying to join any debate team here, I'm just pointing out that these folks are not doing science any favor by opposing corrections that need to be made to school textbooks.

You're begging the question. All of your "corrections" are themselves based upon creationist strawman misunderstandings of mainstream science. They don't need to be made at all.

[Sofa King]

Mutations are the a VERY important part of evolution, as is the combination of your gene sets.

[balrog666]

Lurking ...

What an interesting display of abnormal psychology we have here.

[Elsie]

BSCI 370/ ZOOL 708C, Fall 2000	Dr. Sara Via
Principles of Evolutionary Biology	Answers to Study Question 1

 

1.  What is the difference between a fact and a theory?  Does controversy over the mechanisms of evolution reduce the believability of facts?

    A fact is something that can be directly observed.  A theory is a statement of the natural law(s) that have caused things that we can observe.  Thus,  change in the characteristics of species or the types of species on Earth is a fact-- we can observe this.  The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection provides a mechanism for this change-- natural selection acting on variation within species.  (I will also teach you how to observe natural selection, that is, differential survival or reproduction of different phenotypes, which will show you that natural selection is a fact too).  In my opinion, understanding the mechanism is not necessary for accepting an observation as fact.

 

I have a bit of a problem with some of the very first things presented in this course.  I've highlighted them in blue.

[Elsie]

No, not nipples, but antenna looking structures aka My Favorite Martian.

[Elsie]

Evolution can be predicted, and even if it couldn't, your argument has no logic to it.

Huh?

[Elsie]

According to Frere Teilhard, there is a direction and it will continue.

According to Elsie (and perhaps others), direction means purpose and a goal.

---

My question: Whose?