Capitalism's Savior (Everything You Believe About FDR Is False)

Wall Street Journal ^ | Wednesday, October 29, 2003 | CONRAD BLACK

[presidio9]

Those worried about the recent sluggishness of the American economy should look to the time of Franklin D. Roosevelt. When he entered office in 1933, unemployment was at 33%, there was almost no public-sector relief for the jobless, 45% of family homes had been -- or were in imminent danger of being -- foreclosed, and the Chicago Grain Exchange, the New York Stock Exchange and the banking system had collapsed. Almost no one was engaged in agriculture on an economically sustainable basis and the nation's food supply was apt to be severely interrupted at any time.

[Alberta's Child]

The Five Points Riots was about Irish people dodging the draft because they perceived the Civil War to be about "helping n-ggers." See, they did not like black people, because black people were their direct competition for employment. Did you know that the Irish rioters burned down an orphanage during the riot.

There was a lot more to it than that. The Irish immigrants who rioted in the North were primarily motivated by familial issues, not race. Because of the often random nature of Irish immigration during the 1840s and 1840s, many Irish extended families ended up with members on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line. If Seamus happened to get on a boat out of Dublin that made its first port call in Baltimore, then he became a "Confederate" by association, and if his cousin Patrick landed in New York, then Patrick was a "Yankee." Patrick didn't like the idea of fighting a war that he really didn't have any part of.

The racial aspect of these riots was that these Irish immigrants simply saw no need to fight a war on behalf of black slaves: 1) who were not drafted into the Union army, and 2) whose living conditions were no worse than what many Irish immigrants faced working in the coal mines of Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

[KC_Conspirator]

You are right. During the 30's radical elements in many countries took power and we were able to avoid people like Huey Newton.

[KC_Conspirator]

Pardon me, Huey Long. Huey Newton was the Black Panther, which is even worse.

[JasonC]

"The primary cause was the British determination to stick with Free Trade"

Oh Lord. Ever hear of the Corn Laws? Britain did not go to free trade until after the famine. It was Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws in response to the famine that split the Tory party and ushered in the Liberal ascendency, and led to the second half of 19th century UK position on free trade.

UK was protectionist and mercantilist at the time of the famine. Import of grain from outside the empire was effectively prohibited, while the prices this created forced export from the rest of the empire to England proper (not Ireland). This was designed to favor the wealthy landowning nobility in England proper, that dominated UK politics until reform of the boroughs after Peel and the liberals came in.

It starved a million Irishmen to death as an unintended byproduct when disease led to crop failure. Peel got rid of it because of his own sense of the immorality of the corn laws, after these consequences had been shown. Ireland was not rich in the second half of the 19th century but never suffered actual famine again, because grain could be imported in bad years.

[mhking]

Nothing was gained by eliminating slavery at the expense of 600,000 American lives so Northern factory owners could import yours and my starving Irish ancestors to work their miserable factories and live in their miserable tenements.

Which is worse to civil society: 30 million abortions and 20 million women living amongst us who contracted to murder their own children or 400,000 slave holders?

Trying to put abortions and slavery on the same page? Pass.

Now that we know what side you iron your sheets on, I know to stay upwind of you.

[presidio9]

Hey guess what? When you come to this country and become a citizen, you get a say once a year about what the government is doing. If Bill Clinton raises your taxes, you pay 'em. If you get drafted, you report to your recruiter. Again, conditions for the Irish sucked, but guess what? They could always pick up and leave. There lives were much better than that of the slaves.

[NutCrackerBoy]

So we have Conrad Black calling the argument "revisionist" that FDR prolonged the depression, in the book by Jim Powell, praised by Robert L. Bartley.

Personally, I am trying to understand how we got to our current unconstitutionally big and obtrusive federal government (see Article I Section 8). At what historical step did we actually violate the constitution? That informs my interest in this debate.

[JohnGalt]

"JohnGault has indicated here that he puts much stock in the historical accuracy of the film "Gangs of New York." The movie in fact employed a great deal of dramatic license. "


Can you show me where I did this?

[Orion78]

"Under FDR's lead we went socialist, and almost whent communist. Where else would we go with Alger Hiss (assistent Sec of State), Dean Acheson, Harry Dexter White (assistant secretary of the Treasury), and Lauchlin Currie, all trusted members of FDR's administration, and all Communists. Acheson was never proven a party member, but he certainly was in all the right places at all the right times, with all the wrong people."

You forgot to mention his wife, Eleanor Roosevelt. Wasn't she involved with the Socialist Party and the International Workers of the World?

By the way, a little off topic, but didn't Alger Hiss found the U.N.?

[JohnGalt]

Wow, now you are displaying a serious case of historical ignorance--apologies, I was tied up this afternoon.

Study the case of Virginia Feb-April 1861 then get back to me.

[JohnGalt]

I have not read of any of your posts...do you bring anything to the table?

[Alberta's Child]

When you come to this country and become a citizen, you get a say once a year about what the government is doing. If Bill Clinton raises your taxes, you pay 'em. If you get drafted, you report to your recruiter.

Bullsh!t. If the government instituted a draft tomorrow to fight a war of liberation for Mexico, and Mexican immigrants in the U.S. were exempt from the draft, I can assure you that nobody on FreeRepublic with an IQ over 50 would report to their local recruiter.

Their lives were much better than that of the slaves.

That's not as clear as you might think. A family of Irish immigrants living in Pennsylvania lived a pretty miserable life, and they were exploited in a manner not much different than slaves were. Sure, they were "free" in a theoretical sense, but when you are lving in a company town and working in a coal mine at the age of nine for a meager wage that must be spent at a company store, you are not much more than a slave and don't have many options.

The one thing that eventually made life better for the Irish immigrants (as opposed to slaves in the South) was the influence of a powerful, paternalistic Catholic Church that took upon itself to serve as an advocate for these immigrants (I'll bet most people weren't aware, for example, that the Knights of Columbus were originally created to serve as a life insurance company for Catholic working men). In general, the most influential leaders in the history of the Catholic Church in the United States were from that era.

[SteveH]

I'm no defender of FDR's policies ...

I'm sorry, I should have taken more care to make it clear that my comment was not intended to suggest that you were.

[presidio9]

This is part of a several hundred post thread, so no, I will not be going back to research your referrences to Gangs of New York. Suffice to say you entered this idiotic movie into the discussion repeatedly and forcefully. Do you deny this?

Now, lets get back to the question which has been asked of you multiple times: Was the abolishment of slavery a good or a bad thing?

Do you wish you owned a brown person?

[headsonpikes]

Don't blame FDR for America, blame America for FDR...

Yep, I stand by de Tocqueville's observations in 'Democracy'. ;^)

[JohnGalt]

Actually, I was not comparing the two, just juxtaposing for the purposes of debate. But for your reading pleasure, others have made the comparison.

Case shows abortion-slavery link

Pope Sees Abortion Slavery Similarities

Former Presidential candidate, Alan Keyes shares his views on the commonalities between abortion and slavery

Black Pastor Compares Abortion to Slavery

Irrefutable evidence that a more appropriate title for Abraham Lincoln is not the Great Emancipator, but the Great Centralizer." -- WALTER WILLIAMS

Walter Williams: The Real Lincoln

Walter Williams: The Civil War Wasn't About Slavery

[aristeides]

The Tories tried to ameliorate the Potato Famine, although not very effectively. It was when the Whigs came to power and applied their rigid ideology of free trade that the Potato Famine hit with full force.

[presidio9]

You know what? I am not going to fight this fight with you, because it is irrelevant and it is exactly what someone else on this thread intended when he brought up the subject and his crappy favorite movie. Nobody denies that the Irish had a tough time in Europe and when they first got to this country. Does that change the fact that abolishing slavery was one of the best most important things that this country has ever done?

I sure that you are aware that I am one of the strongest advocates of Catholicism and Irish Catholics in particular on this list. But this whole issue is for another day.

[JohnGalt]

Yes, I do.

I mentioned the movie for humor effect, I asked if you cheered for Lincoln watching Gangs of New York-- clearly humor-- in passing after I clicked on your screen name and saw you were from New York and took a flyer that you might be Irish.

For the rest of the thread the other day, you were under the impression that I was using Gang of NY as the source of my facts (what facts I do not know.)

Abolishing slavery was a good thing; using violence to achieve an end is always worse; that's how us Christians were raised anyway.

Whatever, Jesse Jackson.

[aristeides]

Abortion kills of its essence. If it doesn't kill, it isn't abortion.

Slavery only killed adventitiously, and sporadically. Its purpose was profit, and, if the bulk of slaves had not been kept alive, it would not have been profitable.

So abortion is murderous, essentially. Slavery, to the extent that it was murderous, was only murderous adventitiously.