LoTR-The Two Towers: Book discussion (The Green Dragon Inn) III

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.

We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.

It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.

Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!

[Scott from the Left Coast]

You are as swift as Shadowfax!

So Orc is demon, as opposed to "Goblin" (which seems to me more closely related to ghost -- at least in our modern understanding). They're not far apart, really. But Goblin does sound less threatening (more Caspar-like than Satanic). I suppose the old word for demon seems more suitable, it certainly sounds more terrible than "goblin".

Maybe Tolkien did just like the sound of it better!

[WFTR]

If I remember correctly, there were about 100 orcs from Moria who left the main group to go back to Moria after one of the arguments. My impression was that there were about 50 to 80 of Sauron's orcs and 30 to 40 Uruk-hai in the group that was moving Merry and Pippin. I don't have any authoritative source for these numbers, they are just the impression that I got while reading (and re-reading) the book.

I don't think that they were all operating together prior to the fight. The original number would have been around 200 when they started the flight to Isengard and probably 250 to 300 before Boromir killed a bunch in the main fight. Legolas and Gimli were hunting orcs before finding Boromir and Aragorn, so they probably thinned the herd a bit themselves. Merry and Pippin didn't have the fancy elvin swords. They had man-made swords from the barrow. If they had been surrounded by 300 orcs, I don't think Merry could have chopped off any hands before being caught from behind.

I think the orcs were roving in little bands around the river. The Moria orcs just wanted to send a message that folks should stay out of Moria. The Isengard and Mordor orcs were looking for hobbits. When Boromir crashed into the little band that had caught Merry and Pippin, the noise brought the rest to the battle in little groups. Boromir was killing them as they approached until the Uruk-hai showed up. He got a few of them, but they overcame him. Again, if the orcs had all been together, I don't think Boromir could have withstood 300 against 1 odds long enough to kill more than a few. Furthermore, the crowd around him would have kept them from using arrows. Finally, if they had all been together, which ones were Legolas and Gimli hunting?

When they took to flight, they didn't know what forces were after them or where those forces were waiting. For all the orcs knew, a company from Minas Tirith was nearby and would respond to Boromir's horn. They followed the Isengarders because those were the orcs who had performed the best in battle and therefore won the fear and respect of the others.

I still got the impression that there were fewer Uruk-hai than Mordor orcs. I guess I got this impression from the way that they bullied the others. It seemed as if they had to be very rough because they were a minority controlling a majority.

It's late, and I no longer remember what my point was in all of this. I'm not even certain of it, it was just an impression.

WFTR
Bill

[Overtaxed]

After the "dozens" and the "at least a hundred", I stopped counting orcs! I tend to agree with you that the different orcs were patroling that area. The Fellowship wandered into Orc Central Station! I get the impression the Moria orcs met up with the Isengard orcs before the battle:

'Aye we must stick together,' growled Ugluk. 'I don't trust you little swine. You've no guts outside your own sties. But for us you'd all have run away'

And the Lugburz orcs and the Uruk-hai had different orders:

'The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.'

'And mine too,' said the deep voice. 'Alive and as captured; no spoiling. That's my orders.'

'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our foolk. I wish to kill and then go back north.'

'Then you can wish again,' said the growling voice. 'I am Ugluk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.'

'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugburz.'

And later....

'You have spoken more than enough, Ugluk,' sneered the evil voice. 'I wonder how they would like it in Lugburz. They might think that Ugluk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnakh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.

Can I say it? Can I say it? We don't need no stinkin' badges!

Saruman's in deep doodoo.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think it makes sense that they were not necessarily together before the fight at Amon Hen. They may have even been drawn together by hearing the fight, and the horn, and that afterwards, they just all ran together as a herd...

After the immediate fear wore off and they had run awhile, only then did they start to quesiton where they were going and debate amongst themselves.

That makes sense.

[HairOfTheDog]

Saruman's in deep doodoo.

He doesn't know the half of it yet.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

Merry and Pippin didn't have the fancy elvin swords. They had man-made swords from the barrow.

I don't believe that any of the swords in the barrow were man-made. These were enchanted swords, "work of the Westernesse" from Angmar the "sorcerer-king" of the North (who later became the very captain of the Nazgul). Which is why Merry could slay the undead flesh of the Captain of the Nazgul with it.

"No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

Now how it would have fared against Orcs??? I don't think this changes your point anyway, but thought I'd pick that nit.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

Saruman's in deep doodoo.

The doodoo gets much deeper for him when the most unexpected (and unconsidered) foe shows up on his doorstep. And he with no weapon to use against them.

[WFTR]

Actually, I don't think your point is a small one. If the sword that Merry used was special, he would have a better chance of chopping a few hands and arms before even a large group could grab him. I still think that they originally ran into a relatively small group, but thanks for the correction.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

I don't believe that any of the swords in the barrow were man-made.

I would disagree with this. It was always my understanding (but please, anyone feel free to correct me... I've put my foot in my mouth before!) that the barrow-swords were forged by Men of Westernesse, i.e., Numenoreans of Arnor, for use against the Witch Realm of Angmar. The barrows were the old crypts of these ancient warriors, which later had been taken over by fell spirits from Angmar. The swords themselves though, had been forged with the express purpose of striking against Angmar... which is why Merry's blow was so bitter to the Captain of the Nazgul, who had in fact been the Witch King of old.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

I believe your understanding is correct -- and to pick a nit at myself, I shouldn't have said they were not man-made, but they were especially enchanted swords made by a very ancient race of men (which must obviously have had the power to perform such enchantment). They were magical swords, enchanted to be able to destroy their foes from Angmar with any successful blow. How even this ancient race achieved the ability to create magical weapons that could smite the Witch King, I don't know. Elrond was involved in this ancient war -- so perhaps there is Elven enchantment at work here after all.

[Tuor]

The book says the Crebain came from the south and both Saruman and Sauron are south. I know it's a nitpicky thing and it's just as likely to be his doing as Sauron's.

But it's not. The Crebain are black crows from Dunland and Fangorn: that is, from Saruman's neck of the woods (this is from Foster's Guide). I read the original info but am not feeling too well at the moment; I don't remember where. But Foster's is pretty reliable.

This is what I really have my doubts about. Why should Sauron trust Saruman with any part of this job when he didn't really have to?

Because, IMO, he did have to trust him with it. Sauron had assets spread all over the place and, as we see from Frodo's vision on Aman Hen, a lot more was in motion, but not yet ready for use. I think he didn't have the manpower (or orcpower) on hand to thoroughly comb the River and needed the added forces that Saruman could provide.

OTOH, it is possible that you are right: that Saruman made his own deductions through his own spies and sent his own force completely on his own. The problem with this is that, depending on how often he was forced to make reports to Sauron, he would've had a lot more dissembling to do -- very tricky and very bad for him if he was found out too early. By seeming to obey Sauron, he could avoid placing himself directly at odds with him in such a visible way while still getting his own nails into the business.

I guess 'undoubtably' was too strong a word. Call it 'probably' instead. :)

Tuor

[Tuor]

Is it interesting to anyone else that in this chapter Tolkien brings the term "goblin" in and uses it interchangebly with "orc"?

Not really. This chapter is from Pippen's point of view. Hobbits usually refer to Orcs as Goblins (or even Hobgoblins, if they're bigger). But they're the same thing, really. In the same way, the Hobbits refer to Strider as being a Ranger; however, that is a Hobbit name for them and they don't call themselves that (except maybe ironicly).

Tuor

[Tuor]

I still got the impression that there were fewer Uruk-hai than Mordor orcs.

I agree. I think there were fewer Uruk-Hai than either the Moria or the Mordor orcs. OTOH, they were somewhat tougher, meaner, and (generally) smarter than the others. Also, recall that when they make it to the eves of Fangorn, another big band of Uruk-Hai show up and try to break the encirclement of the Rohirrim.

Tuor

[Tuor]

Saruman's in deep doodoo.

He threw the dice and came up snake eyes. His careful plotting over the years came down to trusting the Orcs he had won over. Justice for him, however, will be soon to arrive...but in a slow, long-winded way, with lots of Hroom hooms!

Tuor

[Tuor]

The swords themselves though, had been forged with the express purpose of striking against Angmar... which is why Merry's blow was so bitter to the Captain of the Nazgul, who had in fact been the Witch King of old.

This is absolutely correct. Recall, also, that the Orcs dropped Merry and Pippen's swords as if burned by them at the time of their capture.

Tuor

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

perhaps there is Elven enchantment at work here after all.

This is true, after a fashion. The Numenoreans were descended from the Edain of the First Age, the original Elf-Friends. Their first king was Elros Tar-Minyatur, Elrond's brother (who chose to live as a Man). The Numenorean's deeper knowledge and wisdom originally came from the Elves, although they made their own discoveries as well, especially involving ship-building. At the height of their power in the Second Age, the Numenoreans were able to make Sauron himself a prisoner, without any help from the Elves.

Of course, Sauron got his revenge....

[LinnieBeth]

Could we deligniate some of these foul creatures a bit?
I looked up 'Orc' in the index, and found that they are corrupted Eleves; the Uruk-hai, see to be a project of Saruman's, and somewhere it mentioned that he was cross-breeding to produce them, also in this chapter the Uruk-hai say that Saruman feeds them human flesh. What do other Orcs eat?

Saruman and Sauron were both 'wizards', that chose The Dark Power however, I thought I had seen Sauron mentioned as a Dark Power, but I was looking it up in the Simillarion -(son just gave it to me Fri) and it refers to Melkor as being the Dark Power. So, now I'm getting confused. Did this Melkor have something to do with creating the Rings? or did Sauron, and what is Sauron's connection to Melkor?

While I'm tossing up all these confusing links, I seem to remember something about Saruman 'hatching' orcs from pods....but I can't locate that right now, perhaps my memory just really failing?

[Overtaxed]

What I found in Encyclopedia of Arda

Melkor is Ainur and of the same order of the Valar and equal in power to Manwë himself, who was Melkor's brother in the mind of Ilúvatar.

'Melkor' is the true name of the first Dark Lord, and is used for him from his beginning until his theft of the Silmarils. Events of that period are described in this entry, but for events after his return to Middle-earth at the beginning of the First Age, see the entry for Morgoth Bauglir.

Originally a Maia of Aulë's people, Sauron was early corrupted by Melkor and became his most trusted lieutenant. In the Wars of Beleriand, Sauron was the most feared of Morgoth's servants, but after the War of Wrath and the expulsion of the first Dark Lord, Sauron rose to become the greatest enemy of Elves and Men in the Second and Third Ages.

Going back for Orc research....

[Overtaxed]

I haven't found anything on what other Orcs eat yet (and I'm not really sure I want to know. :) )

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

The Rings were Sauron's doing... he gave knowledge to the Noldor Elves of Eregion (aka Hollin) and helped them make the Seven and the Nine. The Three were made by the Elves alone, but with knowledge gained from Sauron, so that when he made his One Ring to rule them all, even the Three Elven rings were subject to it.

The Pod-Orcs were from the movie. The books don't say exactly how the Uruk-Hai were created, except that they were likely a cross-breeding between existing Orcs and Men. As to what they eat... < shudder > probably whatever nasty thing they can get their hands on.