Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
Smeagol rules!
Oh, what Providence. These pieces of luggage where enough to distract the Orcs from looking further for the Ringbearer. They do suffer from their captivity, but provide the necessary diversion, and as a reward become well aquainted with the Ents. Now that's a nice reward.
HotD, I think your comment about their unflappableness was very apt. The one characteristic of all the Hobbits that I noticed was that they just did what was necessary- an unflambouyant sense of duty. They were never flashy, nor exceptional in any visible way, they just kept doing what was required. A trait not often the subject of great poetry or legends--but very admirable and appreciated by close friends.
Oh, what Providence. These pieces of luggage where enough to distract the Orcs from looking further for the Ringbearer. They do suffer from their captivity, but provide the necessary diversion, and as a reward become well aquainted with the Ents. Now that's a nice reward.
HotD, I think your comment about their unflappableness was very apt. The one characteristic of all the Hobbits that I noticed was that they just did what was necessary- an unflambouyant sense of duty. They were never flashy, nor exceptional in any visible way, they just kept doing what was required. A trait not often the subject of great poetry or legends--but very admirable and appreciated by close friends and family.
Tuor's View of Orces Eventses:
Warning: Occasional Minor Spoilers Within
We already know that Saruman was aware that the Ring was being sent south. He didn't send out all those Creban for nothing, and once the Fellowship failed to come through the Gap, he must've figured out where they were going, just not exactly when.
Sauron also knew they were moving the Ring south. The Nazgul on the River that Legolas shot down was not there by accident. Like Saruman, he knew that Ring was going by the River, but not exactly where, and he didn't yet have enough forces in the area to completely block all travel...not yet.
So, both Saruman and Sauron sent out what expeditionary forces they could. Sauron undoubtably coordinated things with Saruman through the Palantir, and their forces met up at the location it was felt the Ring would most likely reach, based on previous sightings of the Fellowship and the power of the Eye.
Saruman thought he would be pulling a fast one by concealing to Sauron that *he* wanted the Ring, and instructed his forces that if they found the Hobbits, they should be brought alive to Isengard, and *not* taken to Mordor, as Sauron undoubtably ordered.
It is hard to say whether or not Sauron knew that Saruman was going to double-cross him. He must've at least suspected something like that would happen, since Saruman -- unlike the good guys -- was motivated by the same things Sauron was, and therefore well within Sauron's reckoning.
So, to finish, both forces were sent to get the Hobbits (and therefore the Ring) and were ostensibly supposed to take the Ring to Mordor, only Saruman underhandedly gave his own troops different orders and sent a force large enough to see that they ended up being followed. That is what occurred (more than once) at this point of the story, with the results we shall soon see.
Tuor
Just curious, how did his baring a scar encourage you?
As to who as in charge of the Moria orcs: Sauron is nominally in charge of *all* Orcs. The Uruk-hai ended up being called traitors by other Orcs because they obeyed Saruman before Sauron.
Tuor
I'm sure Saruman did know that the ring was headed south (expecting it to be on it's way to Minas Tirith) but we don't really know that he sent the Crebain. The book says the Crebain came from the south and both Saruman and Sauron are south. I know it's a nitpicky thing and it's just as likely to be his doing as Sauron's.
Sauron undoubtably coordinated things with Saruman through the Palantir
This is what I really have my doubts about. Why should Sauron trust Saruman with any part of this job when he didn't really have to? I don't think Sauron would tell Saruman anything about the Ring if he could help it and coordinating a mission like this would be too risky. I'm just thinking that such trust would be unlikely on Sauron's part.
This reminds me of a passage from the previous chapter that I had underlined and should have mentioned earlier.
Eomer speaking to Aragorn after asking for privacy from the rest of the Mark--"All that you say is strange, Aragorn,' he said. "Yet you speak the truth, that is plain: the Men of the Mark do not lie, and therefore they are not easily deceived. As long as I am quoting old material- there was another passage from "The Riders of Rohan" that made a deep impression on me.
Again, Eomer to Aragon, "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
Aragorn replies; "Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwares and another amoung Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
Sorry, I should have been more agile, and mentioned this in the previous chapter.
The converse of the first quote is pure scripture - - "....men will go about deceiving and being deceived."
In LOTR, only rarely does the term "goblin" appear, and generally they are called "Orcs". I wonder if, after more thought, he simply liked the more foreign, less supernatural, name "Orc" better?
In The Letters of JRR Tolkien (#144) he writes:
Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitablility) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc occurs once, I think) especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech.
True... but I had always figured the Crebain were part of Radagast still helping Saruman, not knowing of his treachery. Or would Radagast have been aware of Saruman's treachery by this point in the story?
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