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To: HairOfTheDog; Tuor; Overtaxed
If I remember correctly, there were about 100 orcs from Moria who left the main group to go back to Moria after one of the arguments. My impression was that there were about 50 to 80 of Sauron's orcs and 30 to 40 Uruk-hai in the group that was moving Merry and Pippin. I don't have any authoritative source for these numbers, they are just the impression that I got while reading (and re-reading) the book.

I don't think that they were all operating together prior to the fight. The original number would have been around 200 when they started the flight to Isengard and probably 250 to 300 before Boromir killed a bunch in the main fight. Legolas and Gimli were hunting orcs before finding Boromir and Aragorn, so they probably thinned the herd a bit themselves. Merry and Pippin didn't have the fancy elvin swords. They had man-made swords from the barrow. If they had been surrounded by 300 orcs, I don't think Merry could have chopped off any hands before being caught from behind.

I think the orcs were roving in little bands around the river. The Moria orcs just wanted to send a message that folks should stay out of Moria. The Isengard and Mordor orcs were looking for hobbits. When Boromir crashed into the little band that had caught Merry and Pippin, the noise brought the rest to the battle in little groups. Boromir was killing them as they approached until the Uruk-hai showed up. He got a few of them, but they overcame him. Again, if the orcs had all been together, I don't think Boromir could have withstood 300 against 1 odds long enough to kill more than a few. Furthermore, the crowd around him would have kept them from using arrows. Finally, if they had all been together, which ones were Legolas and Gimli hunting?

When they took to flight, they didn't know what forces were after them or where those forces were waiting. For all the orcs knew, a company from Minas Tirith was nearby and would respond to Boromir's horn. They followed the Isengarders because those were the orcs who had performed the best in battle and therefore won the fear and respect of the others.

I still got the impression that there were fewer Uruk-hai than Mordor orcs. I guess I got this impression from the way that they bullied the others. It seemed as if they had to be very rough because they were a minority controlling a majority.

It's late, and I no longer remember what my point was in all of this. I'm not even certain of it, it was just an impression.

WFTR
Bill

262 posted on 08/02/2002 11:25:36 PM PDT by WFTR
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To: WFTR
After the "dozens" and the "at least a hundred", I stopped counting orcs! I tend to agree with you that the different orcs were patroling that area. The Fellowship wandered into Orc Central Station! I get the impression the Moria orcs met up with the Isengard orcs before the battle:
'Aye we must stick together,' growled Ugluk. 'I don't trust you little swine. You've no guts outside your own sties. But for us you'd all have run away'
And the Lugburz orcs and the Uruk-hai had different orders:
'The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.'

'And mine too,' said the deep voice. 'Alive and as captured; no spoiling. That's my orders.'

'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our foolk. I wish to kill and then go back north.'

'Then you can wish again,' said the growling voice. 'I am Ugluk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.'

'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugburz.'

And later....

'You have spoken more than enough, Ugluk,' sneered the evil voice. 'I wonder how they would like it in Lugburz. They might think that Ugluk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnakh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.
Can I say it? Can I say it? We don't need no stinkin' badges!

Saruman's in deep doodoo.

263 posted on 08/03/2002 6:45:34 AM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: WFTR
I think it makes sense that they were not necessarily together before the fight at Amon Hen. They may have even been drawn together by hearing the fight, and the horn, and that afterwards, they just all ran together as a herd...

After the immediate fear wore off and they had run awhile, only then did they start to quesiton where they were going and debate amongst themselves.

That makes sense.
264 posted on 08/03/2002 6:47:15 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: WFTR
Merry and Pippin didn't have the fancy elvin swords. They had man-made swords from the barrow.

I don't believe that any of the swords in the barrow were man-made. These were enchanted swords, "work of the Westernesse" from Angmar the "sorcerer-king" of the North (who later became the very captain of the Nazgul). Which is why Merry could slay the undead flesh of the Captain of the Nazgul with it.

"No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

Now how it would have fared against Orcs??? I don't think this changes your point anyway, but thought I'd pick that nit.

266 posted on 08/03/2002 10:46:50 AM PDT by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: WFTR
I still got the impression that there were fewer Uruk-hai than Mordor orcs.

I agree. I think there were fewer Uruk-Hai than either the Moria or the Mordor orcs. OTOH, they were somewhat tougher, meaner, and (generally) smarter than the others. Also, recall that when they make it to the eves of Fangorn, another big band of Uruk-Hai show up and try to break the encirclement of the Rohirrim.

Tuor

273 posted on 08/03/2002 4:00:49 PM PDT by Tuor
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